Cam software for Deckel/Dialog equiped machines

CBlair · Aug 5, 2005

While I do not yet have a Deckel or other cnc machine that uses Heidenhain or Dialog series controlers I have looked at several of them in last year. One question that is in the back of my mind is what software is available that might support these machines. Of those of you useing one of these machines, what cam software are you useing and how difficult is it to get or create a functioning post processor?

I was once given a demonstration on a DMG lathe with Heidenhain control and I was not very impressed with the "conversational programing" as it was demonstrated to me. It seemed kind of Klunky, that is the best way I can discribe it.

Charles

AlfaGTA · Aug 5, 2005

Charles: I have SurfCam and i use it most every day to program my FP4NC with the Dialog4 control. The post supplied with SurfCam did not work but i was able without too much drama to write my own. In SurfCam the post has a dialog box that asks if you are running the program in G17 (vertical) or G18 (horizontal). There are some quirks unique to the Deckel. For instance the horizontal mode cuts as though the part is being machined from the rear, so you must use a rear construction view when you generate the tool path using SurfCam. There are some other tricks such as needing to swap the signs of the "Y" moves when doing a horizontal program, but all this is done with the post processor.
If you want to see a copy of my post i can e-mail it to you.
Cheers Ross

CBlair · Aug 5, 2005

Thank you Ross, I was curious about how the working postion of the Deckel type machines would be handled. Do you have a different post when useing the head in vertical postion and can you change the spindle orentation mid cycle? I have never worked with anything other than a 3 axis machine so this may be a normal operation.

Charles

AlfaGTA · Aug 5, 2005

Charles:
The Deckel system is a bit different than most. On a normal machining center the "Z" axis is always the direction that one would drill with. So on a "Noemal" horizontal machine the "Z" axis is the one that is normal to the horizon across the machine (what a vertical guy would call the "Y" axis.
The Deckel calls out its axis movements as though th machine were always in the vertical mode,ie "X" is the long axis, "Y" runs at right angles to the "X" across the machine, and the "Z" is always the vertical up and down. To make the distinction when programming there are conditions that tell the machine what you are doing. First on my machine the tool clamp has a selector switch that changes the tool clamp/unclamp to either the vertical spindle or the horizontal. This switch is set manualy for me as i have no tool changer. The secondary function of the tool clamp selector is that it also reverses the spindle direction. On the FP-NC machines the mechanical arrangement makes the horizontal and vetical spindles run in opposite directions, so th tool switch takes care of the direction. When you run horizontal the speed code of "S+" means a right hand rotation of the spindle just as an "S+" does on the Vertical.
The other thing that changes is the prepatory code for the direction that you use for tool length compensation. On a Deckel you get : G17 , tool length compensation in the "Z" axis to allow the machine to run vertical. You get: G18 that allows tool length compensation in the "Y" axis to allow the machine to run horizontal. You also have : G19*1 and that gives tool length in the "X+" direction (can run the machine with the verrtical head swiveled at 90 degrees to the right to work on the side of a part) You also have G19*2 and that gives tool length compensation in the "X-" direction. (vertical head swiveled 90 degreed to the left).
As to using the horizontal/vertical in a program i don't mix the two. My machine has the change over to horizontal or vertical as a manual operation (there are some Deckels that can do this under poser and under program control)
I write opreations in th vertical mode as a seperate program from the horizontal. If possible and i need to use both modes i try to start in the vertical mode. The vertical change req2uires tramming when returning to run vertical (must swivel to get head out of the way to run horizontal)
Bu starting in the vertical mode and then switching to the horizontal no tramming is needed...just easier. There are tram locating pins on my machine that get close to squair but for fine work you must final with an indicator.
Cheers Ross

CBlair · Aug 5, 2005

Well Ross, thanks again, you have answered my question wonderfully. I have some photocopies of 1980's machines and of course they are big on showing the capability of switching from horizontal to vertical and back again. Of course I always suspected it would not be as easy as they made it seem.

Charles

AlfaGTA · Aug 5, 2005

Charles:
The switch from vertical to horizontal takes about 1 minute if you have done it before. The reverse back to vertical takes about 3-5 minutes if you have everything right there.(right angle 10 mm allen wrench, tool holder with tramming bar installed and indicator and parallel.) The tram of the head is much easier than the Bridgeport tramming due to the head not having that heavy motor hanging out the back. Also remember that the Deckel only needs tramming in one plane. Also the head has no worm to adjust the angle or tram and that makes the job much easier...just loosen the clamp screws and tap with the your hand on the cover for the tool reliese cylinder on top of the head..moves right in. The factory reference pin will get you close...within one or two thousants on an 8" tram bar sweep....
The Maho machines use a different system. They have a plate that is bolted to the front of the "Y" ram. That plate in turn carries a second joint where the head can swivel for angle cuts. The plate is located to the ram with dowells. By removing the fasteners the plate can be removed sort of like a hiunge and the head can be slid back along the "Y" axis ram on the side of the machine. This system allows the head to be changed from vertical to horizontal and back without loosing the tram of the head. Down side of this system is that wioth no dovetail between the upper head casting (Deckel Vertical) and the "Y" slide there is not as nice a spot to mount all the accessories that Deckel is famous for.
Cheers Ross

lorca · May 12, 2021

AlfaGTA said:
Charles:
The Deckel system is a bit different than most. On a normal machining center the "Z" axis is always the direction that one would drill with. So on a "Noemal" horizontal machine the "Z" axis is the one that is normal to the horizon across the machine (what a vertical guy would call the "Y" axis.
The Deckel calls out its axis movements as though th machine were always in the vertical mode,ie "X" is the long axis, "Y" runs at right angles to the "X" across the machine, and the "Z" is always the vertical up and down. To make the distinction when programming there are conditions that tell the machine what you are doing. First on my machine the tool clamp has a selector switch that changes the tool clamp/unclamp to either the vertical spindle or the horizontal. This switch is set manualy for me as i have no tool changer. The secondary function of the tool clamp selector is that it also reverses the spindle direction. On the FP-NC machines the mechanical arrangement makes the horizontal and vetical spindles run in opposite directions, so th tool switch takes care of the direction. When you run horizontal the speed code of "S+" means a right hand rotation of the spindle just as an "S+" does on the Vertical.
The other thing that changes is the prepatory code for the direction that you use for tool length compensation. On a Deckel you get : G17 , tool length compensation in the "Z" axis to allow the machine to run vertical. You get: G18 that allows tool length compensation in the "Y" axis to allow the machine to run horizontal. You also have : G19*1 and that gives tool length in the "X+" direction (can run the machine with the verrtical head swiveled at 90 degrees to the right to work on the side of a part) You also have G19*2 and that gives tool length compensation in the "X-" direction. (vertical head swiveled 90 degreed to the left).
As to using the horizontal/vertical in a program i don't mix the two. My machine has the change over to horizontal or vertical as a manual operation (there are some Deckels that can do this under poser and under program control)
I write opreations in th vertical mode as a seperate program from the horizontal. If possible and i need to use both modes i try to start in the vertical mode. The vertical change req2uires tramming when returning to run vertical (must swivel to get head out of the way to run horizontal)
Bu starting in the vertical mode and then switching to the horizontal no tramming is needed...just easier. There are tram locating pins on my machine that get close to squair but for fine work you must final with an indicator.
Cheers Ross

As i never used horizontal spindle im teying to program on my deckel fp 4 using horizontal spindle.

Im trying to make a a circular pocket.

But i cant figure out how it should be done im using g76 command.

Could someone give me an example of a program

Thnaks in advance
Loren

Colt45 · May 12, 2021

Which control are you using?

In Dialog4, you need to change the working plane from XY to XZ when prompted for coordinates by the control. The pocket contour will be defined as XZ and the pocket depth moves will now be in Y. It's important to program the pocket with the longest dimension first, otherwise the control will make mistakes- you can override the control prompts to designate the correct axis order.

lorca · May 12, 2021

i own a Dialog 4. As in the manual its says * use of horizontal spindle: interchange x and y axes ??. Tomorrow il will try agian to see if i will manage.

Thanks for your time

Loren

Harri89 · May 13, 2021

Change G17 to G18

Colt45 · May 13, 2021

Harri89 said:
Change G17 to G18

This is correct- change the tool length compensation designation to G18 when using the horizontal spindle.

In addition, change the spindle selector (switch on the top right corner of the main console) from vertical to horizontal.

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