Deckel Dialog 11. Testing M19 = Spindle Orentation and mill did something truly scary
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  1. #1
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    Default Deckel Dialog 11. Testing M19 = Spindle Orentation and mill did something truly scary

    Ran a program to test the M19 command
    Spindle started spinning at ~2000rpm
    Nothing else happened, so I pressed Feed Hold
    Spindle did not stop when I hit Feed Hold
    Spindle did not stop when I hit the power off button
    Spindle continued to spin when I powered the machine back on
    Spindle did not stop when I hit the Manual Stop Spindle button

    I then typed in S100, turned on spindle clockwise and then the spindle downshifted to 100rpm. I then pressed spindle stop, and it stopped.

    Background:
    Old mill I have self-taught myself on. I don't know how to do some of the things on it and I am the most knowledgeable person on it at our shop. The mill has a horizontal and vertical spindle, however the horizontal spindle blank is not fully in there and I have no idea how to change between the horizontal and vertical. I have disabled the tool changer as it would continually say TC NOT IN BASE POSITION and nobody knows how to get that to work either. The Horizontal/Vertical switch results in no command.

    Reading the manuals again I came across some interesting lines. M18 Search for Tool (for automatic tool change) and M19 Spindle orientation (for automatic tool change). I tried typing in M19, no luck, so I wrote a small program as follows:

    N10 M3 S100
    N20 M19
    N30 M30

    I ran it and saw something I thought I would never see. The spindle spinning when the red Power Off button was hit. (Note: The E-Stop button has been looked into, but does not work. The E-Stop is an AC circuit that somehow gets power from somewhere and will sometimes continue to stay on even when hit. When I picked up the mill someone had made a fused jumper across the circuit so the buttons do nothing. I had always assumed that Power Off would stop any servo in its tracks.)

    Questions:
    1. WTF is M19? How is it used? Do I activate it to change the spindle orientation? What is it doing?
    2. How does one change the spindle orientation?
    3. How could hitting the red square Power Off button not turn off the spindle? What am I missing? This was truly scary.

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    I can't offer any direct experience with that machine, but if I went into the electrical and found jumpers which bypass anything, especially anything related to interlocks, there would be only two options:

    1. Go through the whole machine and inspect to ensure any modifications are properly changed back to OEM design.

    2. Decommission the machine before someone gets killed.

    I found several wiring alterations on my MC800H and I'm doing option 1. I cannot imagine being forced to hit the E-stop and having it not respond. At the very least your spindle will take a beating first time you lose an insert.

    On the relatively newer Deckel Maho machines the E-stop circuit is its own separate circuit that utilizes modules that rely on capacitor charge to maintain contact with all circuits. If anything breaks that contact they cannot relatch until the whole chain is complete again with the "On" button pressed as well as the control cleared. Not sure how the Dialog is. I'm sure someone else will shed some more light on this.

    Scary.

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    Pretty sure the E stop chain is typically 24 Volts DC. You need to get the electrical print for your exact machine and check all wiring like Nerf suggested. I would not run the machine, except to test, until the E stop chain is correct and it works correctly.

    M19 is usually used to "reference" or "clock" the spindle rotation, not typically used to change from horizontal to vertical. The spindle needs to have the correct orientation/rotary position in order to pick up a tool from the changer magazine.

    Dialog4 changes from horizontal to vertical (and back) by calling a tool change (either in a program or manually with a button on the console or remote pendant) then rotating a switch on the main console, perhaps it is done similarly on D11.

    Would help us, help you, if you would post the model of the machine and perhaps a few photos. Does your machine have one or more remote control pendants?
    Last edited by Colt45; 08-05-2018 at 01:39 PM.

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    Colt45,

    Sorry about the lack of information.

    The machine is a Deckel FP50CC/T. We are the 4th operators of this mill or so. I do not know the full history of the machine and nobody taught me how to use it. Everything has for the most part self learned through the manual. This is my first CNC machine, but I have experience with hobby CNC stuff and many years of manual mills/lathes.






    lhniytf.jpg

    The machine has a solid table with moving turret. The vertical turret moves and slides up into the upper housing above the horizontal spindle. I have not seen this happen but have seen the mechanics.

    The tool changer (/T) has 40 slots but does not work as far as I have gotten. There were repairs to the servo drives on the tool changer, but the people I got the mill from said it did not work. The mill tool changer will likely never be repaired. TC NOT IN BASE POSITION was an error that was on the mill that I have removed via removing the tool changer in the config files.

    The Emergency Stop circuit is a 24VAC circuit. I have pieced through the circuit many times and have found the aspect it connects to ground all the time rather challenging. I added relays to the circuit so that if I cut the power, the relays would turn off the circuit. Sadly, there is some source of power in the Emergency Stop circuit that, even if I cut the line as it comes from the control panel it will sometimes cause an Emergency Stop but not always. I found that if the machine is running for ~30 minutes, the relay opening does not result in a stop. As a result, I perform Power-Off as my machine stop, which oddly the M19 does not do.

    I am tempted to wire in my own emergency stop button and bolting it to the side of the control console and use that instead of the machine's circuit. I have tried opening the control console but have not been able to reach the button areas. I can, but I worry about breaking something.

    The machine has had a few problems through my use of it over the last 3 years. There was gunk in the gear speed controller on the head that prevented it from going to high speed. The oil level switches failed. The X encoder required cleaning a few weeks ago. Signal issues with the spindle tachogenerator. The motherboards were washed with alcohol when the Gundig had problems starting up. The spindle leaks and consumes oil like mad. Motor relays fused for the hydraulic pump. PLC battery died. X axis motor required retensioning and PID tuning.

    Overall, it is a great machine! I love it. I have a few post processors. I can upload/download to it. I write my own code all the time, but I am moving towards CAM. I still need to figure out how to drip feed. Today I learned about the thread cutting cycle with a single tooth cutter and found that the cycle does only one circle pass as it expects a multi-tooth thread cutter.

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    TC NOT IN BASE POSITION is probably a translation by a native German speaker into English, and likely refers to the tool changer arm not being in the correct location to reference itself. The Changer has to know where the arm is and the spindle has to be clocked to a certain position in order for it to be able to locate and position tools.


    Very possible the E-stop chain is 24VAC instead of DC, believe there are also Deckels with 48volt E-stop chain.

    Difficult to diagnose without the print, I would search high and low for the orange electrical print book for your machine. Contact FPS in Germany, they may be able to help.

    Deckel electronics have a pretty logical and straightforward design and are generally very reliable, I think you will be much better off getting the machine back to the way it was originally wired vs attempting to bypass. There are various functions built into the E-stop chain that you might not know about without being able to refer to the print-especially on a tool changer machine. If the e-stop chain is not correct, certain switching of functions, like the tool change and horizontal to vertical spindle change may not work correctly.

    Typically the wires for this chain are blue, you can trace them starting at the transformer inside the machine and follow them through various contractors inside the control cabinet. Be aware the e stop chain is likely long and extensive and may extend into "hidden" places inside the machine and console

    The 2 position "turn" type switch on the main console, far right, third from the bottom is for changing from horizontal to vertical. If everything is wired correctly, that switch is currently in position to run the horizontal spindle.
    The pushbutton switch below it is used to either call a tool change, or call a spindle change. It may flash or light up when depressed to indicate the call is active.

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    Remembering what I did 2 years ago is hard.

    With labels

    Start: E-Stop circuit powered by 42VAC off of a transformer.
    A = Control panel E-Stop
    B = Tool changer E-Stop
    C = Door locks
    D = External E-Stop (for if linked to a larger apparatus with tables that move in and out)
    E = Deep drilling control. Remove if doing deep drilling. I don't know much about this
    F = Fuses and breakers
    G = I don't know
    H = A lonely contractor. It doesn't contact anything.
    I = Unknown
    K = Power off. Front control panel
    L = Enable power. Front control panel
    M = Servo/Spindle contacts
    N = A pair of relays. I think they are to ensure the cables to the control panel are connected. Latching. Maintains machine on status.
    OPQRST = A bunch of contractors

    My version with notes:


    How it is wired:


    What I did those days ago:
    I disconnected the jumper. I found that pressing the E-Stop did not break the circuit or do anything now either, but something was afoot. It would not always work and sometimes say Emergency Stop even when it was still good. Intermittent with sometimes fine, sometimes not. I pressed B and found that it did not do anything. Measuring with the machine on found 42VAC on both sides of the switch to ground with it depressed and not depressed. I then tracked along the circuit going to Box X113 and the C section

    Button B

    Button B

    Box 113

    C, Switches S106, S107, S108, S109

    So it seemed that power was coming from upstream along the circuit. D and E found nothing, along with F. I am a little unsure what G is, but I can find H.



    Inside the cabinet.

    I then followed along the chain looking for a source of 42VAC power, but I didn't find anything conclusive. I was unsure if I was reading induced power or not. Turning off the machine and checking continuity wasn't doing anything as it was coming from a transformer and going through coils. I was tempted to get a resistor and connecting parts of the circuit to ground to see where it was being pulled up from.

    I then moved to replace the E-Stop jumper wire that was in the machine, but maintain the safety. I had a new relay that used the same power going to H and jumpered 42VAC to I. I then opened the circuit between H and I. That way 'I' only got power if H had power and it would reduce the source of power upstream.

    What happened was the E-Stop sometimes works, but I don't use it as it isn't reliable. I turned on the machine, opened up the jumper I made, and the machine just stayed on. There was power coming from upstream somewhere and I don't know where. I traced the wire as hard as I could and put green tape on the line as I went along.


    Other picture of the fuses. See the green tape at the end of the breakers? That is also the Emergency Stop line. Some reason it has a breaker.

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    Buttons, as I know them:

    1. E-Stop (if it feel like it)
    2. Power off
    3. Power on
    4. Tool change ready
    5. Manual tool change
    6. Coolant
    7. Feed Hold
    8. Cycle Start
    9. Change spindle orientation. Fun to turn, but doesn't do anything yet.

    If I am hearing this right, to change the spindle direction:
    Press 3 to turn on machine
    Press 4 to go into to tool change mode
    Press 1 to activate E-Stop
    Turn 9
    Twist and pull 1
    !~magic happens~!

    I may be able to try that tomorrow. It may be reliant on the E-Stop on 1. working. I do find it odd that 1. needs to be depressed to do a spindle change and I would have never found that out myself.

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    I don't have any direct experience with D11 but there are some parallels to Dialog4, which I do know pretty well.

    Your Button 7 should have a red lens on it and activate "Cycle Stop" and Button 8 (green lens) "Cycle Start" -these are used to run a program or execute commands

    All the loose wires and jumpers in your machine are a bad thing, there is a good possibility that important safeguards have been bypassed and probably a few functions. I would get all that straightened out and back to factory condition before doing much else with the machine.

    If you look In the big cabinet(the one with all the relays and jumpers and wires), there should be a big transformer bolted to the floor (or near floor level) on the side opposite of where all the Harting plug in connectors are for the machine umbilical. Look on that transformer or near it, to find the control voltage taps. If you think the control voltage is 24/42VAC, look for a 24/42VAC tap, there might be a smaller control transformer mounted just above the big transformer on the floor with the correct tap. From there you can identify the wire color (likely blue) and trace it step by step.

    The Red Mushroom E-stop buttons can be used to turn off the machine, but they really are not designed with that in mind.
    I don't think you should have to activate E-stop to do a tool change nor any other regular functions of the machine, its sole purpose is to cut power , break the control voltage chain, and shut down the machine.

    *Assuming everything is wired correctly and functioning correctly*, changing from Horizontal spindle to Vertical should go like this:
    1. Make sure all the Red E stop buttons are "out"
    2. Power the control by pressing Button 3 (normally this has a green lens)
    3. Press Button 4 to "call a tool change or call a spindle change", that button will likely flash
    4. Turn Switch 9 counterclockwise 90 degrees
    5. Press button 4 again to "uncall" the tool change/spindle change. Button should stop flashing


    Will see if I can spend some time studying your prints tomorrow, thanks for posting them and the photos.
    Cheers

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    Some progress

    As people seem highly interested in the emergency stop, I did some tests and just found odd results. If the emergency stop is hit, it will take about a minute before the machine will go into emergency stop mode. So the wiring is there and works, but much slower than considered useful. Maybe some sort of pull down resistor is needed? I can add some. I did 3 tests and they all stopped a few seconds to minutes after pressing. I was moving the machine around with jog commands or just waiting.

    The changing spindle button process doesn't do anything. The process listed does not trigger anything and I can kind of see why. If I changed the spindle without a blank tool in the blank spindle, the machine would break the tool holder.

    I do notice that horizontal spindle blank tool holder is put in reverse with the narrow gap in the cat40 face on the block. I wonder if this could be causing it? The blank tool holder has a special pin at the top of the pull nut. I think this triggers a switch that may be used for the machine to know blanks are in and it can change orientation.

    Question is, how can I open the horizontal tool change when the mill is in vertical? I have not seen that option in the service window.


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