Deckel FP-1 inspection, what to look for?

(Hey all sorry if this is incorrect in some way but I'm new to the forum)
I've been talking with a guy recently about buying an early Deckel FP-1 and since it's so far from me I'll probably have it inspected. Is there any general things to tell the inspector to look for it's my first time buying a machine so all help is appreciated.

4n.2h said:

Since it's so far from me I'll probably have it inspected. Is there any general things to tell the inspector to look for?

Click to expand...

Where is it located? If there is someone experienced from this group, who is not far, they might be willing to have a look for you.

I would suggest the following checklist:
- verify that the machine has been lubricated with oil, not grease
- measure backlash in X/Y, hopefully under 0.020"
- do all axes run to their limits manually and under power?
- horizontal and vertical spindles runs in all speeds without too much noise
- check the horizontal and vertical spindles for play/runout, condition of internal tapers
- the feeds work in all speeds and axes without too much noise
- the oil levels are OK
- examine the visible ways. Are there scraping marks (good) or galling marks (bad)?
- is the horizontal table (X) tight at the ends or sloppy in the middle?
- are bellows present (X,Y,Z)? Are they torn? I don't see the Z bellow in the photo, is it in a box nearby?
- are spindle tapers SK40 (better) or Morse Taper 4 (not as good).
- is there tooling?

ballen said:

- verify that the machine has been lubricated with oil, not grease

Click to expand...

This item tops the list with good reason!
Effective lubrication is seriously compromised if grease has been pumped into the saddle, and that can only be fixed by completely dismantling the saddle.

Good luck,
Bill

Thanks for the checklist its a big help, and it's in Carson City Nevada just south of Reno.

UPDATE: found a machine more local to me that I can go and check out in person so I can avoid an inspector charge

I would say given the nature of the spindle bearings (needle bearings with the housing and shaft forming the inner and outer races) put a tenths indicator on the spindle and see if you can move it - not rotating just press a bit on the shaft. I inspected an Aciera F1 once that had 3 thou movement with that test; same crappy spindle design and very, very hard to recover from

I agree that checking the spindles for play and runout is smart.

The machine in the picture above looks like a Morse taper 4 (MT4) rather than an SK40 spindle to me, so might have tapered bronze bearings rather than needle roller bearings on the spindles.

Credit to the original Deckel design IMO its extremely rare for the anti friction (needle bearing) spindles to have problems.
Can only recall one instance of a poster here who had trouble with such a spindle and that was due to a machine having been left outside in the weather for an period of extended time.

Friction spindles (bushing on early FP1's) are rebuild-able...End play on either type i would not worry about, easy to repair or adjust.....The reality is that there is almost zero chance of detecting any real spindle issues as to condition of
the bearings or running surfaces from an external inspection.....
Spindle taper condition, sure but not the internals...This is an area that you almost have to take on faith, as in the "Hunger Games" the odds are in your favor..I would ask Peter about the number of Deckel's he has encountered that had bad spindles through the course of his time dealing in such machines.....

To the OP.....being your first mill and in particular your first encounter with a Deckel, i might still encourage you to seek the help of someone familiar with these who could help you evaluate its condition.

Cheers Ross

Mcgyver said:

same crappy spindle design and very, very hard to recover from

Click to expand...

I would argue with that statement!

Plenty of evidence here to the reliability of the design as to the number of machines of age still running with zero spindle issues....
Design allows for a relatively compact and rigid assembly....Not the best for high speeds, but you have to keep sight of the era when these machines were designed and built.

Not a favored design by lots of makers , but that is largely because its lots more expensive to execute than a more conventional replaceable bearing cartridge setup....
More difficult to rebuild for those that are not fully tooled, but i will wager that Singer has little problem with a spindle rebuild given they certainly have in stock a range of oversize needle cages to allow compensation
for wear....

Cheers Ross

AlfaGTA said:

I would argue with that statement!

Click to expand...

I figure there'd have been more objections to that .

As nice as they are (I have an Aciera F1, and came close to pulling the trigger on a Deckel recently ....I do like them a lot ), imo, if an expensive mechanism becomes trash when a wear part wears, is a very poor design. Its not like its the Mars rover where there's no other way to achieve the goal except to make it sacrificial. A few mm more would have allowed for regular AC's and permitted replaceable bearings like every other roller element spindle design.

People oooohh and ahhh over them (me too) and I suspect that overshadows lots of unmentioned problems. One guy I was corresponding with was so proud of his....but he did finally admit his spindle was a bad as mine - several thou wear. So its about useless. I bought the one with the bad spindle, the character tried to pawn it off without mentioning it but fortunately I caught it. After some theatrics we agreed on a new deal but I underestimate what a disaster the design flaw is to recover from. Grrrr.

After pursuing lots of different options, I finally decided to redesign and make a replacement spindle using very low profile angular contact bearings so I'll never have that problem again. I'd even thought of getting some made and see if they'd sell.

Great that there is a Singer, but really, that there is one, is kind of testament to the poor design - he's creating a niche out of the need it creates. He's a lifeline and afaik about all there is. Walk into any other spindle rebuild shop with this problem and you'll be told you're out of luck. (unlike most every other person who darkens their doorstep with spindles of reasonable design)

I spoke with engineers at a couple of bearing firms who, despite it being mentioned in the catalogue, essentially laughed at the idea of ordering a single special sized high precision cage of rollers. You could do like they did at Spar aerospace, buy a barrel of balls (or needles) and with a millionths or hundred thousands of an inch comparator sort and make your sets (I have their hundred thousands comparator), but who's go make that commitment to fix essentially obsolete (by modern production standards) old mills? Wouldn't work anyways as all in the barrel will be close to nominal not a range. So what are you left with, make your own needles? But Mr Deckel, I just want to change the worn wear part in my mill!

Out of curiosity, do you have any sense what a Singer spindle cost? Thanks.

Mcgyver said:

I spoke with engineers at a couple of bearing firms who, despite it being mentioned in the catalogue, essentially laughed at the idea of ordering a single special sized high precision cage of rollers.

Click to expand...

I recently went through this exercise with the vertical spindle on my Deckel FP2. I found a local Schaeffler rep who would at least converse with me, and I found a catalog which had part numbers like this:

K50X57X18-A/+2+0
K50X57X18-A/0-2

K45X52X18-A/-3-5
K45X52X18-A/-4-6

According to the rep, those are orderable part numbers, but with a minimum quantity of 500pc . Apparently there isn't enough business in this that someone's bought a batch for resale - not recently at least.
In the end I found Franz Singer's rebuild price quite reasonable.