Deckel fp1 with damaged top way/rail.

Zlimmy · Mar 2, 2020

What's best repair to this crack on my fp1? It's about 8-9cm long and 1/10mm bent up at end of way. I was thinking Bracket, weld or both, but maybe there something else better to do?

Opinions from experienced persons fixing such is appreciated. Thanks

M.B. Naegle · Mar 2, 2020

Can this part be removed and fixtured on the table of another mill, or is this the main casting? I have no experience with Deckels, but IMO bolting a bracket or other plate over it will help shor it up so it doesn't flex, but it'll be hard to make it co-plainer to it's original surface. It's really hard to push a crack 100% back together. I'd mill the affected area out and bolt a new piece of cast iron in it's place, cut to match the original surfaces.

thermite · Mar 3, 2020

M.B. Naegle said:
I'd mill the affected area out and bolt a new piece of cast iron in it's place, cut to match the original surfaces.

Ditto. But unfair advantage.

- 980 lbs of the right sort of Iron on-hand. Former G&L hor-bore bedway.

- Another mill big enough to get at it and do the do.

Not a lot to lose if you try to:

- drill and pin it,

- bleed adhesive into the crack. As anti-rust (rust EXPANDS..) as much as for strength.

- Once stable, dress the displaced surfaces to match adjacent surfaaces. Could be hand file and abrasives work, not stressful milling.

- Fab and bolt-on a brace.

- Check the surfaces for dress and the crevice for being sealed once the brace is secured.

And then.. simply accept some restrictions as to no longer having 100% range of use.

But still being able to buy groceries while still young enough to eat of them.

Not all repairs have as fast and cheap an outcome as that.

Shit happens, it can be a fool's errand to try to return it to source.

Zlimmy · Mar 3, 2020

Its on main casting, so differcult to mill.

For a newbe as me, its probably best to try tapping it, and weld carefully. It will be more orginal looking since this is a ww2 relic. And most of the time it will not be overly stressed.

We'll see.

Thanks

thermite · Mar 3, 2020

Zlimmy said:
Its on main casting, so differcult to mill.

For a newbe as me, its probably best to try tapping it, and weld carefully. It will be more orginal looking since this is a ww2 relic. And most of the time it will not be overly stressed.

We'll see.

Thanks

Wouldn't go NEAR it with a welder. Better-off with no MORE damage, y'see.

There's an effective furnace soldering trick - Quasi "Soft", not a reg'lar braze, but yah have to have a chamber as holds the entire thing. Read: "built for the purpose" or don't even THINK about it.

BTW.. watch that "ww2 relic" stuff. Some among us resemble that remark in the flesh, not the Iron. Much of mine is older than I am, even so! The Iron. Not the flesh.

Zlimmy · Mar 3, 2020

thermite said:
Wouldn't go NEAR it with a welder. Better-off with no MORE damage, y'see.

There's an effective furnace soldering trick - Quasi "Soft", not a reg'lar braze, but yah have to have a chamber as holds the entire thing. Read: "built for the purpose" or don't even THINK about it.

BTW.. watch that "ww2 relic" stuff. Some among us resemble that remark in the flesh, not the Iron. Much of mine is older than I am, even so! The Iron. Not the flesh.

Yes, it's kinda risky i understand, and probably no good idea. But what if it's grinded inside the key groove, say 4-6mm and bronze soldered, or other kind of solder technique? If seam rises a little at bottom, it could be grinded off key to accommodate this?

Yes it's strange with time. This is produced in 1941, and since it has been located at a place where they was strongly fortified here in Norway, it's reason to belive it has seen some proper action... &#55357;&#56846;&#55357;&#56397; One of my main interest is ww2 history.

Turbowerks · Mar 3, 2020

Just a thought, probably not going to pull it back 100 % but like you said light use or limited use.
Drill in 90 degrees to the crack, countersink as large of capscrew as you can use some self wicking anaerobic green locktight , snug it up and run with it.

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ballen · Mar 3, 2020

Zlimmy said:
What's best repair to this crack on my fp1?

If I understand correctly, the dovetail way of the Y-axis slide is cracked through. Do you know how that happened?

It does not please me to say this, but I think that crack kills the machine. You can't fix it properly/economically apart from replacing the casting. In my opinion it would be better to sell the machine for parts and buy another one.

AlfaGTA · Mar 3, 2020

Would as already suggested, flow glue into the crack...make a dam from modeling clay so that you can get the glue above the crack so that it will fill the space.
I would use a low viscosity epoxy or Loctite 290.

After the glue is set i would drill down through the top flat. and tap the base casting, then ream a step towards the top,
Turn up some close fitting iron "studs" with a matching step for the counter bored holes.
Install the stud (make long at the top) using vise grips or similar till tight (bottomed in the counter bore) Fit with Loctite 272.

Carefully cut the stud flush to the top flat .
Finish scrape the top with studs flat with the rear portion of the machine. Broken part will be proud, so some scraping and it will be back to flat to the rear portion of the way.

Repair will be almost invisible on top and no loss of way surface. No distortion from welding.
If there is some issue with the fit on the dovetail face local scraping to the gib plate will get things back to working well.

Stepped stud will take advantage of the dovetail shape. Will provide good shear strength (that is what you need ) if fit well!

Do not use heat, weld, braze,or solder......

Cheers Ross

thermite · Mar 3, 2020

ballen said:
I think that crack kills the machine. You can't fix it properly/economically apart from replacing the casting. In my opinion it would be better to sell the machine for parts and buy another one.

It is ALWAYS better to upgrade. Anything complicated. Or so it seems...

Some have even managed it with better "blanket sharers". As with used ladies in general, or wives, used or never, it can also simply bring a fresh set of NEW problems.

Few here use the extremes of axis travel all that often, so no, not "killed". Merely "walking wounded". MOST Old Iron is slightly maimed in one way or several.

Ross just posted a straightforward "step-by-step" about as good as it is likely to get, and for a realistic investment in money and time, at the least-risk, too,

"JFDI". With as much care in planning and execution as can be applied. Of course.
"Simple" does not equate to "careless".

Then use the mill as long as it works for yah.

Deckel or no, it is only one more machine among brazillions. None are perfect in all respects, even brand-new and undamaged.

ballen · Mar 3, 2020

AlfaGTA said:
Turn up some close fitting iron "studs" with a matching step for the counter bored holes.
Install the stud (make long at the top) using vise grips or similar till tight (bottomed in the counter bore) Fit with Loctite 272.

Not sure I understand the shape of these studs. Are these threaded? Effectively cylinder-head screws?

thermite · Mar 3, 2020

ballen said:
Not sure I understand the shape of these studs. Are these threaded? Effectively cylinder-head screws?

Think extended Filister or "cheese" head, tall enough to get a grip on the extended portion. Saw off not QUITE flush once Loctited in at a "feels right" torque, 'coz one will have to finesse that to not do more damage than it repairs.

Done well, it will easily be strong enough for what will reasonably be asked of it. The REST of the dovetailed way and its opposite mate are still carrying the majority of the load after all.

All the repaired length has to do is restore its helping hand to reduce binding, uneven deflection, or uneven wear over the long haul.

Mill would still WORK if you broke it off, entire and did NOT replace it.

No need. Not so far, anyway.

Zlimmy · Mar 3, 2020

No i don't know reason. Probably due to big pass with this slotting head.

Zlimmy · Mar 3, 2020

Yes, this method as you deskribe it sounds reasonable and kind of easy to do. I will try to do this if i deside to go ahead and fix. Casting is not very thick, and slot for depth stops makes things more complicated. Axis slided really smooth before pulled off. Thanks for nice description &#55357;&#56842;

thermite · Mar 3, 2020

Zlimmy said:
No i don't know reason. Probably due to big pass with this slotting head.

Yah .... well.. that sounds TOO reasonable to be shrugged-off as a "maybe".

Not all that many mill-hands are au fait with a slotter even IF they had shaper (and/or planer) experience.

Buggers don't need lot of excuse nor inattention to vounteer to become crude demolition hammers instead of precise shavers, do they?

DennisCA · Mar 5, 2020

Well that scared me off wanting a slotting head.

Peter from Holland · Mar 5, 2020

AlfaGTA said:
Would as already suggested, flow glue into the crack...make a dam from modeling clay so that you can get the glue above the crack so that it will fill the space.
I would use a low viscosity epoxy or Loctite 290.

After the glue is set i would drill down through the top flat. and tap the base casting, then ream a step towards the top,
Turn up some close fitting iron "studs" with a matching step for the counter bored holes.
Install the stud (make long at the top) using vise grips or similar till tight (bottomed in the counter bore) Fit with Loctite 272.

Carefully cut the stud flush to the top flat .
Finish scrape the top with studs flat with the rear portion of the machine. Broken part will be proud, so some scraping and it will be back to flat to the rear portion of the way.

Repair will be almost invisible on top and no loss of way surface. No distortion from welding.
If there is some issue with the fit on the dovetail face local scraping to the gib plate will get things back to working well.

Stepped stud will take advantage of the dovetail shape. Will provide good shear strength (that is what you need ) if fit well!

Do not use heat, weld, braze,or solder......

Cheers Ross

I agree mostly with you
But I would flow in the glue just before tightening the bolts
Then the cast iron is pulled in position some

Peter

AlfaGTA · Mar 5, 2020

DennisCA said:
Well that scared me off wanting a slotting head.

Or maybe the failure happened during a heavy cut in the "X" , cutter or ram crashed into the vise, or maybe the previous caveman crashed the "Z" going up.....

Surely safest to just leave the machine static....Of course if an earthquake hits maybe the machine will fall over......Really!

Its risky driving to work every day, and yet using good judgement and skill i manage to make the journey daily,mostly unfettered! Have seen plenty of accidents, but it doesn't keep me from driving.
If your scared, stay off the road....Everything has risks, especially to the inattentive or careless .

Will say that i have never seen this specific failure in a Deckel before, slotters be dammed, seems the possibilities for a repeat are remote in the hands of a careful operator.

Cheers Ross

sigurasg · Mar 5, 2020

AlfaGTA said:
Or maybe the failure happened during a heavy cut in the "X" , cutter or ram crashed into the vise, or maybe the previous caveman crashed the "Z" going up.....

Surely safest to just leave the machine static....Of course if an earthquake hits maybe the machine will fall over......Really!

Its risky driving to work every day, and yet using good judgement and skill i manage to make the journey daily,mostly unfettered! Have seen plenty of accidents, but it doesn't keep me from driving.
If your scared, stay off the road....Everything has risks, especially to the inattentive or careless .

Will say that i have never seen this specific failure in a Deckel before, slotters be dammed, seems the possibilities for a repeat are remote in the hands of a careful operator.

Cheers Ross

My nightmare scenario for my FP2 was that someone had tried to lift it by slinging under the Y ram, or by the vertical head's lifting bolt. My crane truck operator suggested this approach, but I was able to persuade him otherwise.

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Laurentian · Mar 5, 2020

sigurasg said:
My nightmare scenario for my FP2 was that someone had tried to lift it by slinging under the Y ram, or by the vertical head's lifting bolt. My crane truck operator suggested this approach, but I was able to persuade him otherwise.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

This happens more often than you'd think, good on you for putting a stop to it.

Deckel fp1 with damaged top way/rail.

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