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Deckel FP1 Draw Bar Question

G

gmoushon

Cast Iron
Joined
May 18, 2006
Location
Illinois
Hello all,

I've just started the restoration of my 1951 FP1 and thought I would ask the forum about the draw bar. The original is missing from this machine and I'm not quite sure of the proper configuration so that I can reproduce it, or if it is available for purchase anywhere.

I do have a horizontal arbor which appears to be a MT4 with male threads.

Does the tooling for the vertical head have the same configuration? Does it use the same draw bar?

Thanks for any input.

gm.
 
gmoushon said:
I do have a horizontal arbor which appears to be a MT4 with male threads.

Does the tooling for the vertical head have the same configuration? Does it use the same draw bar?
Click to expand...
Not sure about FP1's that old, but I have the impression you can make whatever drawbar suits your fancy. The original would have had female threads on the vertical head bar, like your horizontal drawbar...but you could make a drawbar that accepts tooling with internal threads if you want (probably more of an issue on the no. 40 machines than the MT4 machines)

I have a 1982 Deckel FP1 that has standard 5/8" x 11 external thread drawbars, for example, to accept standard 40 tooling. Don't know if it came that way from the factory or is previous owner altered it. Suspect it came that way, as it is an inch machine with 230 volt motor.
 
The Horiz. draw-bar is different from the vertical, although they both have the same female threaded ends. The threadform is a metric buttress type to match the collets. The horiz. draw-bar is tubular and will work in the indexing head. The vertical bar will be captive in the vertical head.

Tim in D
 
Paul Churchill said:
Sorry that was not the original Alexander drawing (but a cad drawing of an Alexander drawbar) The originals are 1 & 2 mb in size - Just ask if you want them - They are scans of the Original George H Alexander drawings giving all detail of threadform, material, heat treat etc they date from 1948 to 1967
My email : [email protected]
Click to expand...

Paul do you have scans of the rest of the drawings?

Greg
 
Greg,
I only have the 2 drawbars + the collar for the vertical one + I have the drawing for the table leadscrew and perhapse 1 or 2 others

The demise of the Alexander drawings is a sad (and mindless) story. They all ended up in a UK company and there was a very helpful guy there who made photocopies on request and for no charge. Then one day it all changed, when some Irish guy joined their management who responded to all requests by saying that we were a damn nusience and that it would be £50 a print from then on - I wanted to get a few owners together and make then an offer to take all the drawings to preserve them and make thenm available to Alexander owners. Then the next thing was that he left and a subsequent search found nothing. They concluded that he put them all in a skip - hard to believe isnt it ?
 
Paul Churchill said:
Sorry that was not the original Alexander drawing (but a cad drawing of an Alexander drawbar) The originals are 1 & 2 mb in size - Just ask if you want them - They are scans of the Original George H Alexander drawings giving all detail of threadform, material, heat treat etc they date from 1948 to 1967
My email : [email protected]
Click to expand...

Thank you Paul for the response and info! I would love to have a copy if its not too much trouble.

My direct email: [email protected]

Thanks again!
gm
 
GM, Drawing Sent by email

NOTES: This is the Alexander drawbar original drawing, the Deckel dims may not be identical. The cruitial dimension will be from the stop collar to the end of the drawbar. It needs to engage as much of S20 thread as is practical but, for obvious reasons, it must clamp the tool without locking up on the shoulder where the S20 finishes and the Morse taper starts.

On my Alexander the dimension from the drawbar end to the spindle nose (which should be the 'gauge line') is 3.25 inches and it works with all my S20 MT4/MK4 tooling including the S20 collets with the MT4/MK4 adaptor and the Whollupta (which actually came with an adaptor to take its S20 MT4/MK4 taper up to 40 Int so it works in the 40Int/S20 Deckel as well)

Also a Deckel Drawbar would have a metric square on the back end - can someone with a Deckel please confirm, I'm guessing it would be 12 or 13 mm

Regards
Paul Churchill
 
Thanks Paul for the drawing.

Did I understand correctly that you have a drawing for the vertical draw bar as well? I need to make this one also.

gm.
 
When I posted the CAD drawing I should have stated that that was not my work and the credit for drawing it should go to another ,Phil - PGP001, I believe though its been a few years since I made my drawbar.
I added an undercut to mine to allow me to cut the internal butress thread into
free air rather than to a dead end and risk breaking the threading tool after carefully grinding it!

Re eject against the 20tpi thread - no problem at all, though I would
add:-
1) the Morse taper series (being below 7 degrees) is a self-locking taper
and most people totally overtighten them which results in excessive
force being required to break the lock.
2) After a long milling session when a warm taper is removed from a warm
spindle, there is a serious risk of the spindle shrinking onto the
new (cool) tool-shank especially if its lamped up too hard.
3) Only tap the drawbar with a copper hammer ( but make the drawbar out
of a something a bit toughet than plain soft steel as like as not you
wont be heat treating it!

Drawbar end-float (using the horisontal as the example) :-
a) will be determined by the length of the threaded section of the 'C'
spanner nut (which must be locked solid against the spindle end and thus
needs an undercut)
b) too much end-float an the drawbar will rattle loudly when no tool is in the
spindle and its running (very annoying and makes the machine souns poor quality!) Mine has about 10 thou or less.

And I just found the email notification setting !!!
 
Hi Paul

Nice to see you back posting here, & thanks for your previous help & advice.

To stop the horizontal drawbar rattle I made up an aluminium MT4 / S20 dummy with an O ring groove at the large end, stops the rattle & keeps the swarf out when using vertical attachments, the O ring means that the drawbar only needs finger tightness to serve the purpose.

Curiously I have not found the damned thing since moving premises a while ago, I know it will turn up the minute I finish making a replacement though. :rolleyes5:

regards

Brian
 
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