Deckel FP1 and FP2 accessories interchangeability?

Hi Deckel Cognoscenti.

I`ve been offered an FP2 Borind head and am wondering if it will fit onto my FP1?

It could be of interest to both FP1 and FP2 owners to know what accessories are interchangeable between the two machines, this would be handy information to have if one has to make a quick decision, as in my case, so that it can be snapped up immediately.

Alan

You clearly did not search the forum
This is asked and discussed on many occasions

But one more time
The Deckel FP1 has gears with 15º pressure angle while the FP2 has 20º pressure angle
So accessories intended to be driven not by their own motor are not interchangable
boring heads were only with a 20ºgear But with the uberrare FP1 raiser that has both a 15º and a 20º gear you can use a boring head on a FP1

Peter from holland

Thank you Peter,
I have observed on many forums that questions are repeated over and over again as new participants like myself join. I think that from my post it was obvious that I needed a quick answer and was relying on the kindness of members like yourself to find the answer ASAP without having to trawl through the info on the forum.
Fortunately or unfortunately the Practical Machinist forum is gigantic and I suppose that I could have spent a few hours trying to locate an answer but was able to get it from you.
As a retired design engineer I have some experience in the field of machine design and your answer prompted a question, has anybody tried to make and fit a gear that is compatible with the FP1 to the FP2 accessories?
It seems a simple fix but of course the dimensions between the shafts could be different etc so that we would need the drawings to be able to research this possible solution.
There are other accessories that may be compatible such as the tables and the dividing unit so does anybody have the answers that we need?
Alan

bentley1930 said:

As a retired design engineer I have some experience in the field of machine design and your answer prompted a question, has anybody tried to make and fit a gear that is compatible with the FP1 to the FP2 accessories?
It seems a simple fix but of course the dimensions between the shafts could be different etc so that we would need the drawings to be able to research this possible solution.
There are other accessories that may be compatible such as the tables and the dividing unit so does anybody have the answers that we need?
Alan

Click to expand...

As Peter said "this has been discussed many times". I don't remember anyone doing the gear change to adapt FP2 heads to work on a FP1 or the reverse, a lot more differences than just the gear. As far as the knee mounted accessories any will bolt up and some will work as is but not a good fit or becoming a project needing something to complete the set up. The only attachment that is the same is the dividing head if memory serves here. If you have something in mind a search of this forum should provide all the info you need.
Dan

Dan and Peter,
It may surprise you that I can do in depth studies into finding solutions to problems! In the case of the interchangeability between the FP1 & 2 there is information that I will need to determine whether the gear solution that I proposed is viable. The fact that the raiser block that you mentioned has both types of gears in it makes it look as this solution is possible.
The information that I need is either access to an FP2 head to measure it up, or the detail drawings of both the FP1 & 2 heads so that I can do a sketch on my steam driven drawing board to prove or disprove the possibilities.
Alan

Lots of discussion over the years on this exact subject......a quick Google search will give you lots of reading material.

Here's one example,

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...abene-mills/elusive-fp1-riser-picture-108505/

I have one of these risers, there is a lot of engineering in this item to compensate for the different gear ratios and head offsets to make the most of the accessories.....

Kevin

Alan-

I'd suggest doing more research before designing your solution. You'll find as number of people have thought of this before. If you have very deep pockets you can make your own adapter, but if they are that deep, you can probably buy an fp1 riser block.

Teryk

The simple answer to your question "Are FP2 accessories interchangeable with the FP1" is NO!

In the specific case, that of the Precision Boring and Drilling head, the answer is that it is possible , but not perhaps practical....
Aside from the already mentioned difference in gear pressure angles, there is the matter of physical size and layout of the base machine.

Deckel knew what they were doing and they provided the solution you seek, the FP1 "Riser"
This accessory not only solves the drive gear mesh issue but addresses the problem of position for the mounted accessory.
Although the boring head will fit the base dovetails on the "Y" top...FP1's are smaller , and have less "Y" travel than their larger brothers (FP2 FP3)
The result in directly fitting the boring head or FP2 slotting head is that the position of the mounted and driven accessory
becomes too far forward to have full travel/table access, limiting the machine. The FP1 Riser is offset top to
bottom as to mounting position so the larger (FP2) accessory is parked in a more useable position.....

Some years back i did see a photo on an FP1 with the boring head directly fitted...Photo mind you so no telling if it actually worked, and what gymnastics were
involved in the power transmission.....It did look front heavy again owing to the fitting of the larger accessory without the position adjustment as supplied from the riser...


My suggestion is make a test gear of the proper nominal size with a 14 1/2* pressure angle and test the fit up. As to finding someone who had real engineering drawings giving the
center distances for both the FP2 and FP1 along with assorted accessories is in my opinion about as likely as Pigs Flying....
This is factory only stuff and too long ago to be archived...

I would guess that FPS, who is re-manfacturing "new" FP's, might have the engineering data (likely in house derived) you seek, but good luck getting that sort of info from them....

In short, think you are on your own,I have not seen any postings from anyone with documentation that have done an FP1 drive gear conversion....Make some test models and report back so we can profit from your work.....

Me, if i was going to be mucking about with adapting something, i would go a bit further and make a riser, or two ...now that might have a market...

Cheers Ross

Alan, an old friend of mine had the idea of removing the gear and put a VFD controlled motor on it.

But he never got around to do it.

Cheers
Erik

bsg-machine said:

Lots of discussion over the years on this exact subject......a quick Google search will give you lots of reading material.

Here's one example,

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...abene-mills/elusive-fp1-riser-picture-108505/

I have one of these risers, there is a lot of engineering in this item to compensate for the different gear ratios and head offsets to make the most of the accessories.....

Kevin

Click to expand...

I may be the one that bought that from Singer? I have one also.
Dan

Thank you all for the posts,
I suppose it`s the kind of challenge that I would rise to
I wonder what happened to the factory drawings when Deckel closed down, surely someone would have saved them? Does Franz Singer have any?
It`s all very well to have ideas in one`s head but it`s the small details that can trip these ideas up! The riser block seems to be a nice piece of kit and probably not so difficult to make (famous last words). Dan would you be so kind as to take some photos of your FP1 riser when you have time and post them on this thread. I will probably buy the boring head as that will be the easiest way for me to go ahead and solve the problem.
I also have a Bridgeport "M" type head that I`m considering fitting to the FP1.
Alan

bentley1930 said:

Thank you all for the posts,
I suppose it`s the kind of challenge that I would rise to
I wonder what happened to the factory drawings when Deckel closed down, surely someone would have saved them? Does Franz Singer have any?
It`s all very well to have ideas in one`s head but it`s the small details that can trip these ideas up! The riser block seems to be a nice piece of kit and probably not so difficult to make (famous last words). Dan would you be so kind as to take some photos of your FP1 riser when you have time and post them on this thread. I will probably buy the boring head as that will be the easiest way for me to go ahead and solve the problem.
I also have a Bridgeport "M" type head that I`m considering fitting to the FP1.
Alan

Click to expand...

Alan,
It might happen in the future, right now it would be a chore to get to it. I thought there was some pictures on my camera media but in looking I don't see them.
Dan

My fp1 with riser & boring head

PICT0033.jpg Photo by taildragger | Photobucket

I have not seen one listed on German ebay for some time.Search for Zwischenbock

Regards, Don.

Don UK said:

My fp1 with riser & boring head

PICT0033.jpg Photo by taildragger | Photobucket

I have not seen Seen one of these listed by Singer for some time

Regards, Don.

Click to expand...

Don,
Not really wanting to Hi Jack this thread but I'm having trouble resisting. Seeing that reminds me of something; What is in the counter bore on the side of the riser? Mine has what looks like a blacked out oil sight glass but may be only a plug. I always wondered what it covered or it's purpose, I don't want to wreck it trying to figure it out only for the curiosity factor.
Dan

Hello together,

But one more time
The Deckel FP1 has gears with 15º pressure angle while the FP2 has 20º pressure angle

Click to expand...

Where can you buy 15 degree cutters?

Klaus

If it is a true 15º degree pressure angle then I would contact someone who can custom make one.

Klaus said:

Hello together,


Where can you buy 15 degree cutters?

Klaus

Click to expand...

I had in mind the gear was 14 1/2 degree pressure angle? I never had any reason to check for myself.

Hmmm- nice little treasure chest there Dan.
Well, yesterday I took your advice and began to trawl through the old forum posts and managed to look through eleven pages before my poor old eyes started to give up on me! on page 105 there is a thread started by TNB "what does an FP! have in common with an FP2 (again)". on 07-31-2003 which dealt with this subject under discussion. He did some experimental mating between the FP1 and the FP2 heads and the upshot of it all was that the Fp2 heads will fit the FP1 but will project !.5" further out from the face of the column. the other problem of the incompatibility of the driving gears was not solved in this instance.
I`ve seen this happen in many threads on various forums where a thread will start but fizzle out without delivering the goods!
I can see a possible way to get the FP2 head to seat in the same position on the FP1 as the FP1 head. I will need a little help with some dimensions and will make a sketch with the dimensions that I require as A;B;C etc. Post it and hopefully somebody will send me the dimensions.
Alan

bentley1930 said:

He did some experimental mating between the FP1 and the FP2 heads and the upshot of it all was that the Fp2 heads will fit the FP1 but will project !.5" further out from the face of the column. the other problem of the incompatibility of the driving gears was not solved in this instance.
I`ve seen this happen in many threads on various forums where a thread will start but fizzle out without delivering the goods!

Click to expand...

That's because in fact, it was not really experimentation I did ! I was only discovering -at my expense- the differences between FP1 & FP2/3 heads after buying one of the latter by mistake for the FP1 I had at that time...

Didn't take long before I also discovered that buying the proper head for the machine you have is so much easyer than anything else (might not be true for the jig-boring head if you have an FP1 though, but I suppose then the easyest is to find the proper machine to power the head !)

Hi TNB,
Having grown up during WW2 and the period of austerity afterwards has shaped my attitude to spending money, especially now living on a rubbish pension as I do.
It`s a rewarding challenge for me to create something out of almost nothing and my impulse purchase of the FP1 has added more to my list of outstanding challenges.
If I can buy an FP2 head cheaply and make it fit the FP1 then this will give me more satisfaction than buying the correct FP1 head for a fortune from Germany if I could afford it!
My aim would be to make the change to the FP2 head re-instatable as I do not like to vandalise machinery.
Alan
Ps. Where in France do you live?