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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars Anthony View Post
    Okay. Maybe it's not a sk40 and it's a mt4. I just got told it was a sk40 from where I bought it... But maybe they got it wrong. I will let you know when I get it out.
    they lied

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    Quote Originally Posted by rasmush View Post

    I just wondered if this really were such a death punch to do. Or if it only were a deckel fan, being scared of little tap.
    Not to hurt any ones feelings. But sometimes I get the idea from here, that the deckels are collectors items, and not really a machine build to do actual work?

    They are to many, a tool, build to make money. Not to last a lifetime, standing in a hobby shop, shining like a new.

    Deckel fp1 taking sk40 holder out
    Hi All,

    Rasmush, Don`t be surprised that some of the forum members show signs of distress at your comments!

    Unfortunately, on this forum, there is an undercurrent of collectors that are cursed with the obsessive collectors gene. They have elevated the Deckel machinery to a cult status and many have their Deckel trophies on display in their purpose built shrines polished and painted as new or better than new and have been hand scraped in lovely curly patterns on every machined face!

    The immaculate tiled floors bear no trace of swarf (chips)or dirt of any kind due to the fact that the machines are never used which is probably due to their owner being unable to do so. Also on display are all the over heavy Deckel accessories in glass cases lit by strategically placed spotlights. There will also be rows of highly polished Deckel cabinets and chests of drawers containing every type of small Deckel tooling lovingly sourced from around the world, every little item obtained another triumph, another brick in the whole display of naked power.

    What`s the harm in it you may ask? Unfortunately these collectors will pay any amount for Deckel machines and parts, thus raising the prices for the rest of us!

    Then there is the obsessive search for extra high precision machinery just for the power that they think this gives them. You`ve seen the thread where the boys go around Europe looking for a machine of this ilk and end up buying a lathe on wooden stilts that they measure it`s accuracy with instruments that have not been recently calibrated!

    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentley1930 View Post
    The immaculate tiled floors bear no trace of swarf (chips)or dirt of any kind due to the fact that the machines are never used which is probably due to their owner being unable to do so. Also on display are all the over heavy Deckel accessories in glass cases lit by strategically placed spotlights. There will also be rows of highly polished Deckel cabinets and chests of drawers containing every type of small Deckel tooling lovingly sourced from around the world, every little item obtained another triumph, another brick in the whole display of naked power.
    Can you show some examples of that ? Frankly I never cease to be amazed at what mundane looking shops some of the ultimate machines are sitting in. Often with OSB walls or something equally goofy looking. I know a Deckel/Maho/Schaublin aficionado in California who doesn't even have panels on his walls....just the studs showing ! The only tiled floors I recall are either in a Swiss dealers showroom or perhaps technical schools in Germany.

    My BS meter is telling me you are pulling this stuff out of your ass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post

    My BS meter is telling me you are pulling this stuff out of your ass.
    Hi All,

    Milacron, Perhaps I was under the influence, but you probably don`t have the collectors gene and you probably haven`t been shown around any European collectors shrines?

    Alan

    Ps, has your BS meter been calibrated recently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentley1930 View Post

    Has your BS meter been calibrated recently?
    I think you are the official gauge
    (just kidding, of course !)

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    Haha, yes that was funny Bentley1930.

    That was also the impressions I have. But, nothing wrong with that. It's nice to see people have such a interest in a thing.
    But of course the replys/respons will be kind of 'coloured' of this obsession.

    You know, like, only this and that works, or are the right tools.


    I would really enjoy a thread, showing all the exciting things/parts you guys do on your deckels.
    Of course I know many don't run their machines on daily basis. Because it's a hobby. But the things, setups and so, would be great to see

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    Hi to all,

    my two cents on this:

    Every high-end item, be it machine tool, knife, car, you name it, can, eventually, be a collector's item.
    In our case, these lovely mills had to wait decades to be affordable to the 'wide' public, when many professionals rendered them not useful anymore. So, many of us amateurs got into the magic world of searching around the web all night and magnifying pics x100 to discover the little details that will confirm that 'this is the right accessory for my machine' etc. Which is really fun...and does harm to nobody.

    In my understanding, not many people are using these kind of machines professionally any more (as with most manual mills more than 50 year's old...). So, I think that the price rise due to the collector virus affects mostly collectors....I find it hard to believe that I would ever be in the same market as, let's say, Ross for the same Deckel tool/accessory/machine. Even if Ross was after a mill same as mine (he actually has one), his budget and condition requirements would outclass mine anytime.

    Last, as I have seen here, all (most?) Deckel 'amateurs' put their machines to actual use, very often hard use. The difference is that, being hobbyists, (that is they love what they are doing and have paid personal money on it), can spare the time to read the manual and treat the tool properly, lubricate the tool properly, clean the tool properly and so on. And also, since they've invested a lot of time digging around, they can readily answer many questions regarding the intended use for the machine (well, this stands not only for the hobbyists, thank god, but you know that I mean...).

    Of course everyone has the right to treat his machine as he pleases, but, if you ask an enthousiast about the right way, well, don't be surprised that you'll get an enthousiastic answer!

    BR,
    Thanos

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    These threads sure go off to a different direction in a hurry, makes me wonder how some ever find their way home.
    In regard to the stuck collet adapter; I may be wrong but think all of those with #4 MT had a threaded nose that use a spanner type nut to remove them? Saying that to explain further all that is needed if the nut is there to remove it is to take any collet out of it and tighten that nut with a spanner wrench. MT can tighten up so you may want to have your hand on it when it pops loose to keep it from bouncing off of the table top.
    Dan

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentley1930 View Post
    Hi All,



    Unfortunately, on this forum, there is an undercurrent of collectors that are cursed with the obsessive collectors gene. They have elevated the Deckel machinery to a cult status

    Alan

    Not unlike the cult status of,oh lets say a vintage Bentley........................................... ..

    Been running Deckels in my shop (for a living) and home since the late 80's...Long enough that i have witnessed the rise of value for these machines and their accessories.
    I attribute most of the price hike to the realization that these little machines are almost perfectly suited for a small shop, wishing to have a quality machine that has big capability and versatility
    in a single package....Don't see too many questions here on this board wanting to know the best way to "preserve" their machines....Rather the questions (which is the only i can judge what owners are doing with
    their machines) pretty much focus on use and maintenance....tool holder selection etc...Suggests to me that folks here are indeed using their machines. In my book that is all to the good!
    I have no issue with someone who strives to make their work or hobby environment, and if that includes a cosmetic rendering of the machine , well again i think that is great...don't find more involvement in the mark as
    a bad thing.
    Further, the continues popularity of Deckel's has another benefit...It allows suppliers such as Singer to stay in business, a fact that i cherish!
    My current take is that at least here prices have fallen and are now relatively comparable with other machines that have comparable build quality....

    My own perspective is that i much prefer to work with a nice clean machine.....sort of like driving a clean car...always seems to work just a bit better.
    As to shop environment...well yes i would much rather work in a nice well lit , clean shop that has real floors.....One where you can find the odd part if dropped and not have to sift through the dirt to
    recover your quest. Hell, my home and work shops are over lit, have stereo satellite radio, heating and air conditioning.....
    No glass cases here , but i do have Lista cabinets and Deckel tool cabinets that do a nice job at organizing my kit.....
    For me life is way too short to spend it toiling in a pit......

    Personally have collected some accessories. Some were purchased when they were inexpensive (long ago) some through trades of goods or services.....I don't have every Deckel accessory, but the ones i
    own i use.
    Are there Deckel items or machines that i have missed due to the cost...sure....its just like every commodity in the world.
    Remember , if these machines were worth little, few would have survived to the present....People tend to care for and keep things they view as valuable.

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by TNB View Post
    I think you are the official gauge
    (just kidding, of course !)
    Hi All,

    TNB, What a terrific suggestion! As you know all meters need maximum and minimum values in order to calibrate them, looking at a probable scenario for a BS (bullshit) meter we could set the range from zero to a maximum of say 10.

    My suggestion is that we use my post for the zero BS content and your thread about Iron Tour 2015 as the maximum BS content.

    I`m still curious about the fact that you cannot explain what your profession is! Perhaps you should write in "comedian".

    Just joking,

    Alan

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    All meters should go to 11.

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    Hi Dan,

    Quote Originally Posted by Danny VanVoorn View Post
    In regard to the stuck collet adapter; I may be wrong but think all of those with #4 MT had a threaded nose that use a spanner type nut to remove them?
    Yes, all of the MT4 taper 355E holders that I have seen are threaded for an M36 x 1.5mm extraction nut. But Lars has not sent a picture of the bottom of his machine's spindle, to see if that's the case here.

    Alan had the same stuck adaptor problem some years ago, and even with an extraction nut was not able to remove it. We had to prop up the bottom of the spindle as I describe above and then knock the adaptor out from above with the drawbar. The puller that I have sent Lars might work as it is, or might require this as well.


    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Not unlike the cult status of,oh lets say a vintage Bentley........................................... ..
    Hi All,

    Ross, It was Rasmush`s astute but amusing comment that sparked off my post, in which I exaggerated of course but it was based on fact.

    Collectors are special cases but the degree of obsessive behavior varies greatly from the mild to the extreme and from person to person.

    IT`s official that collecting is better and safer than sex and in extreme cases the collector can have sex with the object of his desire but mating with a Deckel could be difficult although this might be achieved by using a female MT4 accessory and plenty of lubricant!

    I`m surprised that members responded seriously to my post even though they probably realised that it was a leg pull.

    Vintage Bentleys are slightly different to the machinery cases as prices have risen to incredible levels due to speculative buying by rich business men which effectively cuts off access to them for enthusiasts that would own one.

    To give a typical example of obsessive collectors behaviour one only has to look at the car collection of Jay Leno.

    Ross, By my calculations, if you add another Deckel to your collection, then you will have one for every day of the working week!

    If you ever get bored and want to give one away then please contact me first.

    Alan

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  20. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Dan,



    Yes, all of the MT4 taper 355E holders that I have seen are threaded for an M36 x 1.5mm extraction nut. But Lars has not sent a picture of the bottom of his machine's spindle, to see if that's the case here.

    Alan had the same stuck adaptor problem some years ago, and even with an extraction nut was not able to remove it. We had to prop up the bottom of the spindle as I describe above and then knock the adaptor out from above with the drawbar. The puller that I have sent Lars might work as it is, or might require this as well.


    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Bruce,
    I have been using FP1 Deckels for a long time, before joining this group I had a copy that is made in Japan. Had no idea at the time what it was a copy of and had no information on it other than a manual in Japanese and still figured out how to remove the adapter that was in the vertical spindle without resorting to any extreme measures. Maybe I'm a little better than the rest at figuring mechanical assemblies out or maybe not?
    When someone asks for help I think it's a good idea to try to explain how Deckel designed it to work and that's all I did. As far as what methods others use I don't know any of the circumstances but I know I never had a problem that required pullers or pulling the quill and pressing on the draw bar.
    Dan

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    Hi Dan,

    Yes, you're right. Here the OP did not realise that his machine was MT4 rather than SK40.

    I know that you are very experienced, and that you've never had a problem removing a stuck taper. But others here have had a very nasty time with these.

    For example Alan's saga to get out his stuck collet holder (same as Lars) is described here and here.
    It took him 8 months to resolve this.

    Peter Coleman had to machine out a stuck MT4 arbor, and in the end was not successful in getting that out, even when there was just 1mm of material left. That's described here.

    There seem to be two ways that these can get really stuck. First, if the socket is warm and expanded, and a cold tool is put in, they can get "shrink fit". Second, if the taper slips enough to friction weld itself to the socket. Hopefully neither of those has happened here.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    20180216_091524.jpg
    It came out fine with out any problems using the tool I borrowed from "ballen". And yes it was a mk4 head.... and I finally did get the machine started and it sounds and feel good... now I just need to get some tools for it.

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    Well done,

    cheers to Bruce!

    thanos

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