Deckel FP1 vertical spindle brass bushing oiling point
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    Default Deckel FP1 vertical spindle bronze bushing oiling point

    Slowly moving through my twin-lever 1954 Deckel FP1. This unit has the bronze bushing in the vertical head but no oiling points on the front of the head. There is an oiling point on the top of the horizontal support and the lower Z ram has an oil sight level.

    I have only found information on the bronze-bushing vertical head with at least one oiling point on the front of the head, which mine is lacking. Is the horizontal drive shaft the only source for oil for this head/spindle? It seems unlikely. What am I missing? If this was just an early iteration, it seems like an easy fix to drill an oiling point(?).

    Thanks,
    John

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    John, some photos would be helpful. If I have understood, your FP1 is MT4 with a solid bronze spindle bearing. Cheers. Bruce


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcgrimes View Post
    Slowly moving through my twin-lever 1954 Deckel FP1. This unit has the bronze bushing in the vertical head but no oiling points on the front of the head. There is an oiling point on the top of the horizontal support and the lower Z ram has an oil sight level.

    I have only found information on the bronze-bushing vertical head with at least one oiling point on the front of the head, which mine is lacking. Is the horizontal drive shaft the only source for oil for this head/spindle? It seems unlikely. What am I missing? If this was just an early iteration, it seems like an easy fix to drill an oiling point(?).

    Thanks,
    John
    Hey there,

    if I remember correctly, the oilers in the front are for the gears and the quill. I think that bronze bushings are lubricated through the spindle tail drive slot! If you put oil there it will slide along the spindle to the tapered portion and be stored in the felts withing the bronze taper.

    But could be wrong...Please double check.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    The quill assembly doesn’t have any openings, other than the flange on the top, so oil has to enter from the top. It is clear that oil can reach the head assembly from the horizontal drive shaft, but it would need to go up from this gear in order to reach the top of the quill(?). Without the oil access point on the front of the head assembly I don’t get how it gets oil.
    4ed9330c-c67a-4a6c-b643-3a30a6a30683.jpg4ed9330c-c67a-4a6c-b643-3a30a6a30683.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcgrimes View Post
    Without the oil access point on the front of the head assembly I don’t get how it gets oil.
    John, are you concerned about getting oil to the spindle bearing (in between the bronze tapered bearing and the steel spindle)? Or oil in between the quill and the head (in between the steel cylindrical quill and the cast iron head)?

    [EDIT]

    I just looked in some German-language documentation for the old FP1. Not sure if this is your exact model. Here is what I found:



    Here is a translation:
    The top bearings in the vertical head are lubricated with smooth grease. The supplied high-pressure grease gun should be placed on nipple F and pumped into the roller bearings. This should be repeated after about every 200 operating hours.

    The lower spindle bearings, which are journal bearings, are supplied with oil via oiler K. Oil should be supplied as required depending upon milling head use. After removing the screw, the bearing of the drive shaft should be oiled from time to time through oil channel S.

    So if I have understood correctly, the issue on your machine is that both F and K are missing. Is that right? A close-up picture of the top of the quill so we can see the top of the bronze journal bearing might be helpful.

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    Hi John

    Here is a picture of a 1950 FP1 MkII with the bronze bushing as bearing for the vertical milling head spindle.

    vm_head.jpg

    Clearly visible is the front oiler that your are missing on your piece. May be you can post a few more close up photos to better diagnose the issue.

    I would be very surprised if there were head castings of this era without the oiler spare out...

    Best,

    Stefan

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    Quote Originally Posted by quarkgluonplasma View Post
    I would be very surprised if there were head castings of this era without the oiler spare out...
    Yes, which makes me wonder if someone fitted a head casting from a later era. But that would not have fit the bronze bushing, right?

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    The only obvious oiling point is on the horizontal support.
    a2ba81cf-920d-4ecf-ad67-a9fd47d43305.jpga2ba81cf-920d-4ecf-ad67-a9fd47d43305.jpg

    The head doesn’t have any obvious oiling spots. There is a small threaded hole on the top retaining ring. Could this be an oiling point? It is really small and came with a screw inserted.

    fe81d765-b45e-4666-8b72-0132eecd024f.jpg

    Looking “up” at the spindle bronze bushing it seems unlikely it was converted from needle bearings, correct?

    69958627-6fe9-41c6-9030-8b35cae2cd8b.jpg

    Thanks again,
    John

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    The images are so small it's hard to see any detail.

    Here is an FP1 with a bronze bearing spindle for reference. I cannot say if they all looked like this though:

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    The images are so small it's hard to see any detail.

    Here is an FP1 with a bronze bearing spindle for reference. I cannot say if they all looked like this though:
    sorry for the off topic, but isn't this table a bit strange for the FP1? Could be the angle of the picture

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jcgrimes View Post
    Looking “up” at the spindle bronze bushing it seems unlikely it was converted from needle bearings, correct?
    It looks to me as if one could swap a spindle/bronze-bearing/quill assembly for a spindle/needle-bearing/quill assembly. The only problem would be that the oiling points are not the same, but otherwise I suspect that the complete assemblies are interchangeable. Can anyone reading this either confirm or falsify that assertion?

    If a swap is possible, then I suspect you have been sold a machine where either a needle bearing quill/spindle assembly was swapped for a solid bearing/quill assembly, or where the vertical head casting intended for the bronze bearing head was replaced with a vertical casting intended for the needle bearing head.

    In your shoes, I would consider carefully drilling holes in the vertical head casting, to add a grease nipple for the roller bearings above, and an oiling point for the bronze bearing below. Is that possible? Maybe someone here can help identify the best locations for those oiling holes on the inside, by measuring their MT4 head?

    If you do this, measure and plan carefully and only drill once. If necessary build a jig (fixture?) to guide the drill so that it enters and exits in exactly the right locations. This is a situation where drilling the holes will take 5 minutes but preparation and fixturing might take some hours.

    Note: this will only work if the INSIDE of the two different castings are similar. I do not know if the casting meant for the solid bronze bearing head has structures inside (to guide oil/grease) which are missing from the casting intended for needle bearings. Is there anyone you can visit in a few hours drive who has a bronze-bearing FP1 that you could remove the quill from and look at inside?

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    Hey there Bruce,

    I think this image here makes much more sense regarding guiding the oil to the top of the quill so that it can reach the bronze bushing:



    So I think it's more than just drilling holes, a tube is also needed. If there was just a hole there, I would assume that oil would need to be pressed in there vividly with the quill lowered so that it would reach the top of the quill, or else it would just flow down the casting and lubricate the quill OD.


    Regarding mixing up quill and head castings, I remember Ross mentioning that the casting is lapped to fit the mating quill so that might not, always, work nicely. But I guess whoever did it (if it was actually done) may not have had many other options.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Hi,

    I was under the impression that all MK4 spindles are bronze bush bearings? And the 40 taper could be either bronze or roller? If so I have a MK4 fp1 with the same head casting that is missing the oil ports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    Hi,

    I was under the impression that all MK4 spindles are bronze bush bearings? And the 40 taper could be either bronze or roller? If so I have a MK4 fp1 with the same head casting that is missing the oil ports.
    I saw pictures like that as well. How do you lubricate your bronze bushing then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I saw pictures like that as well. How do you lubricate your bronze bushing then?
    I don’t! Machine is in storage, it needs a good going over before being used. It currently has a brushed on blue porch paint under/over a thick layer of dirt. I have assumed as it is a MK4 that it has a bronze bearing, but I don’t actually know for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    I don’t! ...
    but how would you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    but how would you?
    I haven’t actually thought about it. I bought the machine in haste unseen as they are very hard to find in New Zealand, when it arrived I was very disappointed in its condition. Some things happened soon after purchasing it and it has been in storage for years since. I hope sooner than later to get it out and give it a good going over. All I know for sure about it is that it is a MK4 with lever gear change. As for luib, I will look in to that when I have it apart.

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    So dose anyone know how to tell a bronze vs a needle bearing head without dissembling it? Any other tells apart from the oil points?

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    Here is a picture of a Deckel FP1 Mk.2 from a Deckel brochure:

    deckel_fp1_mk2_version2.jpg

    There is no oiling tube on the front of the vertical head. The brochure explicitly states that the head has a MT4 cone and runs in roller needle bearings.

    This means, Boat Brat, that MT4 spindles in vertical heads were also produced with roller needle bearings.

    Common sense would suggest that with an oiler on the head its a bronze bushing bearing and without such a roller needle bearing version.

    In Johns case, Bruce conjecture makes sense, that for whatever reason, a crazy mix up took place.

    Let me know John if you need the measurements of the oil tube location on my MT4 bronze bushing bearing head. Best, Stefan

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    This means, Boat Brat, that MT4 spindles in vertical heads were also produced with roller needle bearings.

    Common sense would suggest that with an oiler on the head its a bronze bushing bearing and without such a roller needle bearing version.

    Makes perfect sense.


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