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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I have thought about making another steel plate like this and put it on the otherside of the table and use it to push the table in the same diretion, that way I cold have pulling and pushing forces acting on both sides of the table.
    IMO not a good idea. Cast iron is like concrete: strong in compression, weak in tension. Apply too much tension by pulling, and you may crack it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Thanvg makes an interesting point, since the gib is protruding out, is it not better to use as big a surface as possible to push against the gib.
    Thanos and Ross have both said this and I said the same in post #84.

    Since the gib is sticking out, use a large cross section piece of stiff steel between the gib and the end plate on the operator side. Something like 20x20mm or 25x25mm that won't deflect but will push. If you make this pusher slightly longer than the distance from the gib to the operator side end plate (a few mm) then you can loosen the operator side end plate, insert the pusher, then tighten the threaded rod. This will apply force directly to the operator side end plate and from there directly to the gib, with the opposing force applied to the door side of the support. This will do what Ross is suggesting: encourage the gib to slide on the support towards the door side of the support.

    PS: to add some numbers.. if the end of the gib is 5mm x 20mm, it has a surface area of 100 square mm. Typical forces required to permanently deform steel are a few hundred Newtons per square mm. So the force required to deform the end of the gib would be a few tens of thousands of Newtons, meaning the equivalent of several tons of weight. So if the piece of steel is pressing uniformly on the end of the gib, you can apply the equivalent of a few tons of force before you will permanently deform it. But be careful that it's resting on the entire end of the gib. If you are just touching at a point or a small area, that will be deformed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    IMO not a good idea. Cast iron is like concrete: strong in compression, weak in tension. Apply too much tension by pulling, and you may crack it.
    Oh, yes.. damned cylinder heads flying off cast-iron engine blocks have been taking down light aircraft, airliners, and the odd dirigible ever since the Wright brothers started putting up better targets than sassy cattle chasing truant steam engines for the pure Hell of it...

    Bruce? "it's all 'relative'", CI in tension, else you couldn't attach CI to much of anything without a chain-mail BAG around it or great clots of used chewing gum, to capture and hang onto it, yah?

    Not to put TOO damned fine a point on it, but a rope or cable wrapped about the table, rather "stringbag" like indeed would cover the need of tension AND the concern about fastener-attached pull breaking it up like cheap bricks, lumpy washing powders, or old rock candy anyway.


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    Another approach is to get oil under high pressure between the gib and casting
    Drill a hole (or more as one)in the casting ending between gib and casting Then apply oil under high pressure while keeping tension on the table Perhaps from the pump of a workschop press
    If it is wedged in tight it needs something like high oilpressure to bend the casting a bit to give space

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Another approach is to get oil under high pressure between the gib and casting
    Drill a hole (or more as one)in the casting ending between gib and casting Then apply oil under high pressure while keeping tension on the table Perhaps from the pump of a workschop press
    If it is wedged in tight it needs something like high oilpressure to bend the casting a bit to give space

    Peter
    Get me a "blaster's permit" valid in Finland, so I don't end up in jail, I can show you how to do that, and probably without need of leaving the kitchen of the average modern home! Mind, pissing me off to where a Civil Aeronautics board FLIGHT clearance might be on the menu as well.

    And there goeth the wherewithal meant to produce all the holiday baked goods!


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    Maybe I'm not able to describe it well but Ross's last post is the same as my Item 10 in concept anyway.
    I further believe that you shuold have the table threaded rod in tension to assist in trying to push the gib out. Reasoning is that any friction between the table and gib will also push the gib out.

    Where we are similar is I too think you should place a stout rod or something to press on the end of the gib but at the same time as you have the table in tension.

    If it were mine and I had that setup all in tension /compression I'd then MAYBE add two 5000w construction heaters facing the table to see if anything happened then my last effort prior to material removal of some sort would be to hit the end of the rod taht was pressing on the gib with a 5lb hammer or something to try and shock it free. Lots of time you see people removing tapered ball joints or something and they thread the puller and it doesn't move. One good hit on the end with a hammer and it snaps apart. I'm just trying to recreate this but in logical steps always moving up in terms of aggressiveness.

    Anyway I'll be watching to see how things unfold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cwilcox View Post
    Maybe I'm not able to describe it well but Ross's last post is the same as my Item 10 in concept anyway.
    I further believe that you shuold have the table threaded rod in tension to assist in trying to push the gib out. Reasoning is that any friction between the table and gib will also push the gib out.

    Where we are similar is I too think you should place a stout rod or something to press on the end of the gib but at the same time as you have the table in tension.

    If it were mine and I had that setup all in tension /compression I'd then MAYBE add two 5000w construction heaters facing the table to see if anything happened then my last effort prior to material removal of some sort would be to hit the end of the rod taht was pressing on the gib with a 5lb hammer or something to try and shock it free. Lots of time you see people removing tapered ball joints or something and they thread the puller and it doesn't move. One good hit on the end with a hammer and it snaps apart. I'm just trying to recreate this but in logical steps always moving up in terms of aggressiveness.

    Anyway I'll be watching to see how things unfold.
    Yabut the first-time, ever-time trick with tie-rod end pop-out wants matched short-handled "hand drilling hammers" (got those) and an experienced fully ambidextrous operator (guilty).

    The paired hammers striking opposite sides of the "loop" distort it below the plastic limit however briefly, but the conical ball-joint has NOWHERE ELSE to go but "out".

    More metal in a Deckel. Not my first choice approach if even it could be applied at all. "Rocking" motion, OTOH, very much is on any dance-card I get to scribble on.

    40CW.. Overhead..

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    So let me explore this some. I can agree that the mass in the deckel is probably too much to accomplish the goal stated but I didn't see many better alternatives.
    Would you be able to articulate your concept of rocking motion in a manner that the average population can understand? What is 40CW Overhead code for? I'm not trying to be rude at all but I think some of your ideas are good they are just clouded by the presentation, for me at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cwilcox View Post
    So let me explore this some. I can agree that the mass in the deckel is probably too much to accomplish the goal stated but I didn't see many better alternatives.
    Would you be able to articulate your concept of rocking motion in a manner that the average population can understand? What is 40CW Overhead code for? I'm not trying to be rude at all but I think some of your ideas are good they are just clouded by the presentation, for me at least.
    BIG FUCKING HAMMER "average" enough for yah?

    If that needs local translation? Find a pepsi.

    Hand him a wood screw.

    Watch what he uses for a "tournevis".

    The crosses or slots are for REMOVING wood screws.

    "un marteu" inserts them faster.


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    Apparently you know much more french than I do. Google helped me with those. OK so instead of hammering on the top of it could one push up from side to side by placing the jack on one side then to other to apply controlled force to try and rock it? Or alternatively use that chain hoist the OP just acquired to pull one side of the table down some them the other side to rock it?
    I don't know honestly as this is beyond my experience. I'm going to wait now until the OP catches up with his efforts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cwilcox View Post
    Apparently you know much more french than I do. Google helped me with those. OK so instead of hammering on the top of it could one push up from side to side by placing the jack on one side then to other to apply controlled force to try and rock it? Or alternatively use that chain hoist the OP just acquired to pull one side of the table down some them the other side to rock it?
    I don't know honestly as this is beyond my experience. I'm going to wait now until the OP catches up with his efforts.
    Pitch the jack, rods, plates, and all the other effete trappings of a tet de petit merde over in the corner of the shop, eat a decent round of "ros bif" on half-brown for fuel, roll up sleeve and start whacking the bitch on opposite corners alternately, and she'd have been OFF, propped up on rocks, a fire built under, and venison being seared atop already.

    We have more than a few of the great, great, ^nth grandsons of the legendary durable, bandy-legged, refrigerator-chested and seriously pragmatic coureur des Bois on OUR side of the St. Lawrence, too.

    I have born arms alongside a few. US Army livery. They are NOT men to be casually trifled with, nor even issued undersized BOOTS. Many would be significantly taller, DNA had not turned so much under at an ELL shape so they could water-ski barefoot, single ski, and traverse marshland to trap beaver where teeny-feeted amerindians wudda sunk in and vanished out of sight. Some say female "bigfoot" creatures speak a dialect of Acadian French, but only when ovulating..



    They would have had this table off, undamaged, and have gone off for a nap or a shag already. Bigfoot OR the French Canadians. I did say "pragmatic"?

    And "Oh, BTW?" Do NOT hang a hockey puck on it and slide it out onto the ice where the local school team can have at it for practice at colliding with heavier players, opposing team.

    The table will soon be off, allright, but the tee slots will need dentures!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cwilcox View Post

    Where we are similar is I too think you should place a stout rod or something to press on the end of the gib but at the same time as you have the table in tension.
    I don't think this has been addressed - I would make that pusher thick with square and sharply defined surfaces, and either securely clamp or wedge it against the table surface that the gib bears against. My reasoning is to prevent it from bowing and springing, and possibly jumping off the end of the gib as pressure or possibly impact is applied. If it's possible to dress up the end of the gib so the pusher bears cleanly and squarely against the end of it I would do that too.

    I think applying pressure as cwilcox describes (if hydraulics are not possible) and administering a heavy bump to the outside of the plate has a good possibility of moving the gib.

    I think just moving the gib would mean less surface area being moved than moving the table and gib together. What do others think of that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Another approach is to get oil under high pressure between the gib and casting
    Drill a hole (or more as one)in the casting ending between gib and casting Then apply oil under high pressure while keeping tension on the table Perhaps from the pump of a workschop press
    If it is wedged in tight it needs something like high oilpressure to bend the casting a bit to give space

    Peter
    I should have patented the idea. I thought of it earlier today. But please be careful it you do this. There is the risk of breaking a casting, and of getting injected with high-pressure oil. My guess is that you would not be able to build and hold pressure unless you got really lucky with the hole drilling, and did not run into a groove, scraping divot, etc.

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    You would drill this from say underside the table then. I am wary of this idea. It might be worth attempting, I have one of these manual pressure testers that is used for filling tanks with water and testing the pressure. They can go very high. Not sure how it'd like oil though.

    I checked last night too how big a thread I could get on the big side, an M8 seems too big so an M6 thread I guess. Not sure if that would be worth it? Can an M6 threads holding power really add anything to this situation? Maybe an M8 can fit but there won't be much material left on the top and bottom for the thread...

    I broke my M6 tap (Völkel) a while ago and need a new one, I have wondered if it's better to get spiral taps in the future, they are self clearing and better for blind holes, local store sells Ruko taps.
    Last edited by DennisCA; 11-20-2018 at 01:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    I should have patented the idea. I thought of it earlier today. But please be careful it you do this. There is the risk of breaking a casting, and of getting injected with high-pressure oil. My guess is that you would not be able to build and hold pressure unless you got really lucky with the hole drilling, and did not run into a groove, scraping divot, etc.
    Grease instead, then.

    Just tap for a Zerk, plug will fit later, meanwhile fill with grease, then use the impact grease purger bought last year for hammering the old grease out where it shudda been Vactra not grease to begin with!


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    the oil/grease under pressure seems a bit riskier than just applying some heat to the outside of the X slide while having the thing under tension and at the same time knocking the sh*(& out of the protruding end of the gib via a drilled hole in the pressure plate at the end of the X slide to have straight line of sight at the gib

    the thing about pressure is you have no idea about how big the surface area of the effect will be, which directly influences the bending force you're exerting on the casting, it also makes the "ringing" action of knocking on the end of the big less effective eliminating any gaps between the gib and the slide surfaces

    risk of mushrooming the gib is there, but the damage would be minimal, I would even make sure that the are of the contact between the drift and the gib is somewhat away (like 1mm or so) from the sliding surface of the table, so the mushrooming of the end happens to push the gib material slightly upwards, after the table is loose, the gib can stay in place till the table is slid off of the support, then remove the gib and file the end to proper shape, that gib only needs to move "in" just couple mm to make things to move, and it looks like about 5-7mm of the gib is protruding out there, but don't use toy hammers here, they will only move the material around without transmitting the impact force through the gib

    so my approach would be tension + heat + hitting the gib, not 1 out of the 3, not 2, but all 3, and heat must be applied quite fast, so it doesn't permeate into the support much, I wouldn't go past 70-80 degrees, and apply it just slightly above gib, bottom 2 T slots look good for that

    also I wouldn't jack or cock the X slide in any way, because you might be creating more tight spots that way not knowing where the current problem is, one thing that might help is to observe the gib ends while jacking and loosening, to see if there is any movement of oil in/out while you jack up the table, indicating some movement of the table - there is a good chance you won't see anything, if the gib has been scraped well, but that is the only thing worth looking while trying to rock the table, but once you start to apply the heat, leave the table hanging freely, just have the tension of the allthread rod on it

    anyway, this thing is worthy of live streaming with a council of elders looking at the screens and issuing orders what to do when and where

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    It will take some time to assemble the materials I need for the pushing jig, but I think my setup is going to be a thick 15-20mm plate screwed onto the end of the operator side of the table.

    I am not sure if I should be placing massive pressure on the table itself or just keep it a little pressure to make sure it does not move.

    I will try and make a depressed area around the place the M16 nut will go through, so that this area does not contact the plate directly, so the pushing piece can have a few mm of stickout, it will not be possible to fit the M16 thread so it can reach into the dovetail I believe so the pusher bar has to stick out, but perhaps only a few mm of movement is needed.

    I would like to know if it's worth to pursue a pulling jig from the other side given the much smaller thread required?

    EDIT:
    Also would a piece of brass at the contact point between gib and steel pusher be a bad idea? I am thinking brass will deform first and fit to the shape of the gib, but it could also deform to the point that it reduces the amount of pressure being put on the gib. Is steel on steel contact what is needed here?

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    I wouldn't care so much about mushrooming the end of the gib at this point, the important thing is to get it out.
    So, steel on CI without nothing in between to absorb the impact, I would say.

    Jz79 pointed out that gib could deform towards the table's sliding surface as well, adding to the wedging situation, but I hope that's not much.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    It will take some time to assemble the materials I need for the pushing jig, but I think my setup is going to be a thick 15-20mm plate screwed onto the end of the operator side of the table.

    I am not sure if I should be placing massive pressure on the table itself or just keep it a little pressure to make sure it does not move.

    I will try and make a depressed area around the place the M16 nut will go through, so that this area does not contact the plate directly, so the pushing piece can have a few mm of stickout, it will not be possible to fit the M16 thread so it can reach into the dovetail I believe so the pusher bar has to stick out, but perhaps only a few mm of movement is needed.

    I would like to know if it's worth to pursue a pulling jig from the other side given the much smaller thread required?

    EDIT:
    Also would a piece of brass at the contact point between gib and steel pusher be a bad idea? I am thinking brass will deform first and fit to the shape of the gib, but it could also deform to the point that it reduces the amount of pressure being put on the gib. Is steel on steel contact what is needed here?
    I would make the gib pusher bar only 0.2mm longer than needed and apply force to the table and gib with the M16 allthread.

    Pushing the gib and table synchronoysly to same sirectiob is the safest option for the gib, friction between table and gib is actually helping you and not fighting against your purposes.

    Force that you can safely apply to the gib by pulling is pretty small compared to pressing so I wouldnt bother with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Also would a piece of brass at the contact point between gib and steel pusher be a bad idea? I am thinking brass will deform first and fit to the shape of the gib, but it could also deform to the point that it reduces the amount of pressure being put on the gib. Is steel on steel contact what is needed here?
    A thin brass strip in between the gib and the pusher might be a good idea. Brass has a yield pressure of 135 MPa, so if the piece is 5 x 20mm and has a surface area of 100 square mm, then it will deform under a force of 135 x 100 N = 13,500N. That's the gravitational force (weight) of a 1.3 ton object.

    So IMO yes, put a thin brass strip in between the gib and the pusher. By deforming on the high spots this will help ensure that the pusher applies its force uniformly. If you are applying MORE than 13kN of pressure then the brass strip may have to go.
    Last edited by ballen; 11-20-2018 at 03:50 PM.


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