Deckel FP2 acquired (Preliminary) - Page 11
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 11 of 44 FirstFirst ... 91011121321 ... LastLast
Results 201 to 220 of 868
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    I am really happy to announce that the GIB IS LOOSE!

    Pretty anti climactic really!!! I just went out in the shop and I had the regular pushing setup pictured. I kept adding penetrating oil and soaking the machine as well as I could, been doing that for a few days now. Tightened the rod and screws some more and gave it a whack and I thought I heard a sound. I wasn't sure if it moved or not, but I checked the nut holding the plate and it was loose. I could hardly believe it, but a few more smacks and it had moved all the way in and from there I could push it on out.

    Here are some pics. After this days long ordeal I think I will do something else now, like grocery shopping with the family. But look at the gib, no through hole, no oil channels? Just a sort of scooped out section, I assume it collects and smears out the oil. There's also what I think is a clear sign of galling.













  2. Likes rklopp, Mud, AlfaGTA, ballen, mnl and 2 others liked this post
  3. #202
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Country
    UNITED KINGDOM
    Posts
    1,072
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    241
    Likes (Received)
    293

    Default

    Well I guess you feel some satisfaction now ...

    With SOOOOOOOOOO many imputs frustration must have been running high!

    Stick a beer or two on your shopping list and enjoy before you do any more!

    John

  4. #203
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    312
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    98

    Default

    Congrats. The rest of the machine may be like this too, you never know. I have no knowledge on the scraping beyond what I've read on this forum but if it were my machine and used like i use mine which is for hobby only I'd silver solder a piece of brass to the broken part after dressing the fracture surface to prep it for the silver solder joint. When soldering it using oxy-acetlyne I'd also put some heat removing putty on the gib to protect it from warpage. If the end slightly warps I'd flatten it in a surface plate with some grit or even wet sand paper. This will probably be considered poor practice but really what tdo you have to lose, it is already broken and it didn't sound like you are using this machine to make money. I might even be tempted to wrap the brass over the end of the gib and solder it there too in order to strengthen it. This assumes there is space available to do that.

  5. #204
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,745
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I am really happy to announce that the GIB IS LOOSE!

    Pretty anti climactic really!!! I just went out in the shop and I had the regular pushing setup pictured. I kept adding penetrating oil and soaking the machine as well as I could, been doing that for a few days now. Tightened the rod and screws some more and gave it a whack and I thought I heard a sound. I wasn't sure if it moved or not, but I checked the nut holding the plate and it was loose. I could hardly believe it, but a few more smacks and it had moved all the way in and from there I could push it on out.
    If'n I wasn't plumb WORE OUT from the pain of even READING all the fooking armchairing the poor ignorant hunk of metal half to DEATH?

    I'd still have the energy left to larf my wrinkly-crinkly fossilized old arse clear-off over those whacks and smacks!

    Keyboard will have to serve.

    QED
    , buppy!


  6. Likes Laurentian liked this post
  7. #205
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Country
    LATVIA
    Posts
    279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    72
    Likes (Received)
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cwilcox View Post
    Congrats. The rest of the machine may be like this too, you never know. I have no knowledge on the scraping beyond what I've read on this forum but if it were my machine and used like i use mine which is for hobby only I'd silver solder a piece of brass to the broken part after dressing the fracture surface to prep it for the silver solder joint. When soldering it using oxy-acetlyne I'd also put some heat removing putty on the gib to protect it from warpage. If the end slightly warps I'd flatten it in a surface plate with some grit or even wet sand paper. This will probably be considered poor practice but really what tdo you have to lose, it is already broken and it didn't sound like you are using this machine to make money. I might even be tempted to wrap the brass over the end of the gib and solder it there too in order to strengthen it. This assumes there is space available to do that.
    since the gib on his machine is already protruding somewhat outside at the other end, might just be easier to drill a hole in the support at the other end and tap it, then, using some blue loctite, put a screw there, and leave the broken end as it is now, so the gib will be secured between 2 screws, little bit more work to adjust it, but 0 risk of warpage, cracked weld, bad braze etc, which might lead to a stuck gib again, and it's not like he is going to adjust it couple times a week...

  8. #206
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,745
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    since the gib on his machine is already protruding somewhat outside at the other end, might just be easier to drill a hole in the support at the other end and tap it, then, using some blue loctite, put a screw there, and leave the broken end as it is now, so the gib will be secured between 2 screws, little bit more work to adjust it, but 0 risk of warpage, cracked weld, bad braze etc, which might lead to a stuck gib again, and it's not like he is going to adjust it couple times a week...
    Bravissimo!

  9. #207
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,964
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1771
    Likes (Received)
    2318

    Default

    Pretty thin for any screw i think.at the small end of the gib...
    Think it better to shorten the big end some ...the amount of the thickness of the broken tab for the adjusting screw...then use two screws to secure a small steel strip to emulate the material removed...
    the window for the gib screw head will be restored by the strip and everything will work as before....
    Cheers Ross

  10. #208
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    My plan has been to mill off the entire end part of the gib that is broken, drill and tap two holes and screw in a new part that I then file to shape. I might get two M4 screw or maybe even M5 screws if I use that side of the gib.

    I could also TIG weld it I suppose but there's always a risk the weld comes out badly.

    EDIT: Exactly what Ross wrote above yes.

  11. #209
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    If'n I wasn't plumb WORE OUT from the pain of even READING all the fooking armchairing the poor ignorant hunk of metal half to DEATH?

    I'd still have the energy left to larf my wrinkly-crinkly fossilized old arse clear-off over those whacks and smacks!

    Keyboard will have to serve.

    QED
    , buppy!

    Ah but I don't think we can discount the input here by days of constant clamping pressure on the parts, and the constant soaking in penetrating oil. I hammered on it regularly too, I think all the forces had their role to play in this.

  12. Likes ballen, Laurentian liked this post
  13. #210
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,964
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1771
    Likes (Received)
    2318

    Default

    I would happily trade any number of days and assorted methods of disassembly for one moment of rash over enthusiastic and impatient application of heavy handed force......

    End result here is the safe removal of the offending stuck part.....
    Looks like its a no harm, no foul move to me.....Not on a production schedule here, so the time looks to have been well spent.
    Time to move froward to the next puzzle.....Its all incremental.
    Cheers Ross

  14. Likes DennisCA, ballen, Jersey John, Milacron liked this post
  15. #211
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,745
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I would happily trade any number of days and assorted methods of disassembly for one moment of rash over enthusiastic and impatient application of heavy handed force......
    Fair enough... "rash" could have been a possibility.

    After all, he's only got youth and skill on-side up against Old Age, Treachery AND skill... the expert, not at all rash, application of heavy force with elegance and finesse, if you will...



    End result here is the safe removal of the offending stuck part.....
    Looks like its a no harm, no foul move to me.....Not on a production schedule here, so the time looks to have been well spent.
    Time to move froward to the next puzzle.....Its all incremental.
    Cheers Ross
    'tis indeed!

    Essayons!

  16. #212
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Country
    LATVIA
    Posts
    279
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    72
    Likes (Received)
    147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Pretty thin for any screw i think.at the small end of the gib...
    Think it better to shorten the big end some ...the amount of the thickness of the broken tab for the adjusting screw...then use two screws to secure a small steel strip to emulate the material removed...
    the window for the gib screw head will be restored by the strip and everything will work as before....
    Cheers Ross
    I wasn't suggesting to drill into the gib, but the support, and use screw cap as a stop for the gib, to do the job of the broken off bit, the fat end is held in with a screw just as the original one was

    untitled.jpg

  17. #213
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1589
    Likes (Received)
    891

    Default

    I am glad that the gib finally came out. Congratulations! It looks very similar to mine, see pictures in post #73.

    At this point you should remove the vertical table so that you can examine the surfaces which bear on the gib. I would do this before you make plans for how to fix the gib. Two healthy middle-age males can easily lift the table. Or rig it as I did: put a workshop table underneath, adjust Z to drop vertical table onto workshop table, slide off with one hand. Easy.

    A further question: is the gib cast iron or steel?

    Personally I would be inclined to replace the gib rather than risking that the tab breaks again. If you want to consider this, send Franz Singer a few pictures of the removal process and ask him how much a replacement gib would be. He might be able to sell you one that has a turcite layer, which is very easy to scrape and lower friction than the all-metal version. So in a very short time you could have this refitted with a part that has much lower friction and won't gall and stick as you have just experienced.
    Last edited by ballen; 11-21-2018 at 09:38 AM.

  18. #214
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,964
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1771
    Likes (Received)
    2318

    Default

    jz79:

    Thanks for the clarification....
    Cheers Ross

  19. #215
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Country
    GREECE
    Posts
    483
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    130
    Likes (Received)
    113

    Default

    Well done Dennis, hope rest of the path is easy!!

  20. #216
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I am glad that the gib finally came out. Congratulations! It looks very similar to mine, see pictures in post #73.

    At this point you should remove the vertical table so that you can examine the surfaces which bear on the gib. I would do this before you make plans for how to fix the gib. Two healthy middle-age males can easily lift the table. Or rig it as I did: put a workshop table underneath. adjust Z to drop vertical table onto workshop table, slide off with one hand. Easy.

    A further question: is the gib cast iron or steel?

    Personally I would be inclined to replace the gib rather than risking that the tab breaks again. If you want to consider this, send Franz Singer a few pictures of the removal process and ask him how much a replacement gib would be. He might be able to sell you one that has a turcite layer, which is very easy to scrape and lower friction than the all-metal version. So in a very short time you could have this refitted with a part that has much lower friction and won't gall and stick as you have just experienced.
    Yes I will definitely remove the vertical table to inspect the ways on it after this. I am not entirely convinced I want to give up on this gib just yet, but I might send Franz an email for their opinion. I think a repair might possibly make the tab stronger if I were to follow the drill and tap method and screw in a thicker tab. I believe this would not have happened if not for the grease demons influences. Or if I TIG weld it I could just build on material backwards and make the tab thicker.

    I did not expect the other side to look like it did, I expected something like the Z-axis gib with long channels for oil. I can see that this design seems to be like one pocket or reservoar and that slowly rising edge likely helps smear the oil out in the ways, though only in one direction it seems like and no through hole to the other side either. I think I can see why ISO 220 way oil is preferred, since it is more viscous it won't run out of the reservoar so fast. Still I wonder about this design, is it good? Shouldn't there be a through hole so the other side gets some oil too, that's were the galling happened. And the sliding surface should perhaps have a channel.

    EDIT: I should wait until the coffee kicks in before typing assumptions like the above.... But on further consideration it is the lower side of the gib that is the sliding surface and the one with the "reservoar" is the non sliding surface. I noticed this while I Was looking at the gib and examening the wear and thinking about how it all went together and surely the sliding surface should be more worn, the upper side is basically unworn, scraping looks new everywhere but towards the smaller end, the underside is more worn on both sides while the center is less worn.

    So this poses the question, how does the lower side of the gib get oil? I am referencing your thread at the moment to see if I can find a picture of the ways of the vertical table, maybe there are grooves in the table? If not I am kinda wondering about this design aspect.


    I cannot be sure but I think this is steel based on the look of the broken surface, I think if it was cast iron you would just see the cast iron grain structure and a clean break but here it looks like lines as if the part had moved and bent before braking and there's also deformation at the edges of the break, whereas cast iron would probably snap cleanly. And the small end if the gib I see is also slightly mushroomed. I don't think cast iron does that, it snaps instead.

    I have a friend who has done some scraping who offered me to use his straight edge and scraping tools to repair the surfaces, but maybe that is overkill. I suppose with a true straight edge I can see if the gib is bent or not. He also favors welding over drilling and tapping.

  21. #217
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1589
    Likes (Received)
    891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I cannot be sure but I think this is steel based on the look of the broken surface, I think if it was cast iron you would just see the cast iron grain structure and a clean break but here it looks like lines as if the part had moved and bent before braking and there's also deformation at the edges of the break, whereas cast iron would probably snap cleanly. And the small end if the gib I see is also slightly mushroomed. I don't think cast iron does that, it snaps instead.
    This sounds right, I think many of the Deckel gibs are steel. Another way to tell is to scrape a shard off of the backside with a sharp HSS or carbide edge. If it flakes off into dust then it's cast iron. If you get a long curl then it's steel. This has some influence on if/how you repair it.

  22. #218
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    312
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4
    Likes (Received)
    98

    Default

    Spark test is another useful tool for material identification.
    http://www.weldingwire.com/images/in...metal%20id.pdf

    Page 14 http://fac.ksu.edu.sa/sites/default/...nprotected.pdf

  23. #219
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,595
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1589
    Likes (Received)
    891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I am referencing your thread at the moment to see if I can find a picture of the ways of the vertical table, maybe there are grooves in the table? If not I am kinda wondering about this design aspect.
    You can find lots more photos in my public photo album. The most relevant ones are in "FP2 Photos, Set 04":







    Of more relevance is the support, where I think the oil is supposed to come from. I suspect that it should be provided by the vertical hole visible in the middle of this photo, but am not sure. This one comes from Set 07:


  24. Likes DennisCA liked this post
  25. #220
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    487
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    139

    Default

    Thanks! I guess that makes sense, hard to see how else it would get some oil.

    Today after all the heavy engineering stuff I felt like doing some cosmetic work and decided to do something about the ugly scratches left in the hand wheel hub by the earlier owners, chucked it in the lathe and took of a few hundreths of a mm.



    On a working machine I don't know there's much point polishing more than in this picture, a satin finish that looks better in real life than on the camera. The aluminum handwheel has some nicks in it too but I am not sure it is worth machining those out.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •