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  1. #21
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    Unless you can find a wide leg crane where the legs go on either side of a pallet I wouldn't bother with it, I have found the cheap engine hoists to be of very limited value when unloading machines as you can't get them close enough. I would suggest you buy or borrow a chain hoist and build a temporary gantry or tripod to lift it off. Cutting away pallets isn't all that much fun and can go very wrong.
    L

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    With 2 ratchet straps you can pull the machine off the pallet
    1 Hook behind the edge of the pallet The strap around the machine Then the other hook on the other side of the pallet
    The other strap the other way around to keep pulling straight
    Pull it onto 2 stacks of plywood Then remove 1 plywood at a time BTW the machine has its own hoist The Z-axe spindle If balenced right you do not need much force to use it
    do not run the machine without the jog wheel as its centre bolt tightens the pully
    Singer sells smaller replacements which work fine
    Handrad fur die konv. Deckel Frasmaschine 21-186 | eBay

    Peter

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    Dennis, as Thanos pointed out, your machine is missing the inching wheel from the back. Hopefully the shaft there is not broken. I see that Franz Singer has an original used one (180mm diameter) auctioning on Ebay for 25 Euros. If you can get it near that price, then it's not worth making it yourself.

    Handrad D18 gebr. fur die konv. Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay

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    That makes me more concerned with the issue of what do I do if the shaft is broken?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    With 2 ratchet straps you can pull the machine off the pallet
    1 Hook behind the edge of the pallet The strap around the machine Then the other hook on the other side of the pallet
    The other strap the other way around to keep pulling straight
    | eBay[/url]

    Peter
    Hi Peter,

    could you elaborate on this technique, I didn't quite understand it and it would be very helpful for future use.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Dennis, as Thanos pointed out, your machine is missing the inching wheel from the back. Hopefully the shaft there is not broken. I see that Franz Singer has an original used one (180mm diameter) auctioning on Ebay for 25 Euros. If you can get it near that price, then it's not worth making it yourself.

    Handrad D18 gebr. fur die konv. Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay
    Bruce is right, if it stays this way then the price is comparable to the cost of the material if you were to make it on your own. For my needs, the standard large inching wheel is essential, allows for rotating the spindle even in high rpm settings, useful if you need to withdraw a tap after power tapping (seems like I can't find the spindle reverse switch on my FP2 )

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    That makes me more concerned with the issue of what do I do if the shaft is broken?
    The inching wheel is made of some kind of plastic, so the probability of the shaft it attaches to get broken or even bent after a hit on the wheel is not much I think.

    It could be as simple as the wheel just being misplaced after removing it to remove the rear cover. I wouldn't worry too much about all this.

    Br,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    What do I do if the shaft is broken?
    You buy a new one (expensive!) or make a new one (might need to mill keyslots) or fix it by threading it turning an extension, and gluing them together with loctite.

    I assume that you have a lathe which you can use. Without that, it's hard to get an FP2 into working order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hi Peter,

    could you elaborate on this technique, I didn't quite understand it and it would be very helpful for future use.

    Thanos

    Very simple A ratchet strap has 2 hooks 1hook you hook behind the edge ofthe pallet Then place the strap around the base of the machine Keep it low Then hook 2 is also placed behind the pallet If you tighten the strap now it will pull the machine off the pallet But to one side Of you have 2 ratchets,one on each side of the machine you can keep it straigt
    Then on a stack of plywood and lower the machine by removing 1 piece of plywood at the time

    you can also use 3 stacks The one in the middle at the centre of gracity If you remove 1 plywood at the outer one you can tilt the machine over to remove the next 2 sheets Then remove 2 in the middle And so on

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Very simple A ratchet strap has 2 hooks 1hook you hook behind the edge ofthe pallet Then place the strap around the base of the machine Keep it low Then hook 2 is also placed behind the pallet If you tighten the strap now it will pull the machine off the pallet But to one side Of you have 2 ratchets,one on each side of the machine you can keep it straigt
    Then on a stack of plywood and lower the machine by removing 1 piece of plywood at the time

    you can also use 3 stacks The one in the middle at the centre of gracity If you remove 1 plywood at the outer one you can tilt the machine over to remove the next 2 sheets Then remove 2 in the middle And so on

    Peter
    I think I got it. So the ratchet straps are that powerful to pull a pallet that's under a heavy machine? With all that friction? you might have to help it with prying bars I guess....nice, I'd love to see it on video before trying it out though...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I'd love to see it on video before trying it out though...
    How far away from the many massive and ancient structures all over Greece are you, anyway?

    "The ancients" didn't have You Tube. Nor 500-ton cranes (well, actually they DID have. Just built in-place, not road-mobile ones!)

    They sure as Hell understood levers, micro-tilting, patience, and expert incremental shim use, though. The evidence has endured.

    "Trust me" [1] it works as well as ever as one of my own first-responder go-to techniques, 5 gal plastic pails of re-usable shims, several thicknesses, steel and the woods and polywoods, some tapered, kept ever and always close to-hand. Cheapskate Iyam, even with a nice pair of toe jacks, pair of "garage floor" trolley jacks, and whole tribes of bottle jacks and pry-bars in the arsenal.

    Shims are the bedrock and baseline of Old Skewl rigger hands, Persia, Egypt, meso-America, Mohenjo Daro, Greece, Rome... the very week just past....

    Grab some and GROWL!

    You can fake the Growl until you learn the REST of what defines a "real rigger", cannon-cocker, oil-rig roustabout, or Combat Engineer on yer own.

    To wit: Ability to to grow hair out the ears heavy enough to braid as taglines, swear in no fewer than five languages, live a month in the same pair of leather britches, wipe yerasswithbrokenglass, LOVE mud, refuse to work as "too easy" unless it is pissing down rain or snow, run fast enough to catch anything on-planet you want to eat, shag, or both - and, of course, GROWL while doing any or all of the above in any sequence or in parallel!

    That, too has "endured". But you can give it a miss, get by with just the odd hair in the ears, and just go move the damned goods WITHOUT generating even "skid marks" in the undershorts .... if you are careful.



    [1] Disclaimer: I am not a Manhattan New Yorker. "Trust me" being their code for "F**k You!")

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    How far away from the many massive and ancient structures all over Greece are you, anyway?

    .....
    That, too has "endured". But you can give it a miss and just move the damned goods.



    [1] Disclaimer: I am not a Manhattan New Yorker. "Trust me" being their code for "F**k You!")
    Hi Bill,

    though I highly enjoyed your post (and struggled with my english to follow) let's not hi-jack Dennis's thread...
    (Youtube videos are very handy: they contain distilled wisdom stemming from way long ago, say from ancient Greece for example, getting enriched for centuries all around the world and returning in a 5' video on your smartphone. That you can watch while leaning on the wall of an ancient greek theater across the street from your home :P good stuff!)

    BR,
    Thanos

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    My suggestion is to be sure what you are going to do and have all the materials on hand before beginning....
    Moving machines is a matter not to be taken lightly, even relatively small ones....Been doing this for a long time.never had an accident or dropped a machine..once moved an 80 ton steam locomotive out of a service pit after the support structure holding it up failed ...No crane,just 2 men, hydraulic rams and lots of blocking...go slow and be sure of every move....best to work by yourself or with a single helper...Crowds are the bane to careful moving....


    Proper toe jacks and pinch bars would be my first choice. I do not favor excavating the pallet out from under the load...Big problem there is you really can't tell where the balance point is or how much load any one part of the pallet is taking.....makes it hard to predict the effect of removing any one part of the pallet....

    Your shop space makes a "shop crane" a difficult choice....not much room to roll the crane into place , or roll it out....Some versions break down where the lower legs can be removed so that style might be usable. if available...But most lac enough lifting capacity when extended high enough to reach above the machine...

    The relative size of your shop however does present a good , safe way to lift the machine enough to remove the pallet.
    In your position i think (based only on the photos) i would construct a gantry over the machine. The purpose here is to simply lift the machine enough to slide the pallet clear and set the machine back down on the floor.

    You don't need an "A" frame here. A good stout beam for the cross member, cut the the width of your shop so that it is touching both walls (place across the narrow dimension of the shop)
    Note the size of the cross beam will depend on the span....guess at over built here!!!!!!!!!
    Then two vertical compression beams that support the cross beam and go down to a solid foundation (presume the floor is concrete)
    Some "L" plates screwed between the cross beam and the vertical supports ...will tie this all together.
    This setup needs to be constructed directly over the machine, so no side loads will be fed into the "gantry"...
    To stabilize the verticals use lag screws through those verticals and into the wall studs.....

    For lifting, purchase three nylon strap slings, each rated well above the machine weight and lift using a real chain hoist (not a cable come along) from the beam.....Line up everything so all the pulls are straight up.
    Lift slowly, testing the stability of all as you take the load. Lift only high enough to slide the pallet out.
    Two straps go over the cast in lifting lips (one front , one rear) on the base of the machine...the third strap (shorter) goes around the cross beam and holds the chain hoist.
    The two slings on the machine need to be long enough to come together in an "A" just above the machine...

    Slide in cross blocking as the pallet is removed....one at front one at rear. (helper)...remove blocking in steps as you lower the machine ..this is just a safety....stay clear of the machine as you work..never place any body part
    (Hands or feet) under the machine, pallet of blocking.....

    Once on the floor, a good pinch bar can be used to set final position of the machine...

    Good Luck.
    Cheers Ross

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    That is close to how I imagined doing it, though I did think of building a real A-frame gantry but I think this will work as well.

    The idea of a commercial 2-ton crane that I modify the legs to be wider on still interests me though as I got other machinery in the shop I might want to move around in the future or if I sell something I need to be able to get it out or onto a pallet.

    I think though the machine will remain on the pallet for some time when it gets here.

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    Are there any videos of people using toe jacks to get a heavy machine off a pallet, I don't really have a clear idea of how the procedure goes there, are four used to just lift the machine up and remove the pallet, seems as it might be unstable and dangerous to me?

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    Dennis, be careful. This is what happens when something goes wrong (see post dated Di 19. Aug 2014, 21:04). Karl was lucky, was only in the hospital for a few hours, and has recovered from his injuries. He could easily have been crushed and killed.

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    Ouch... yes ths is precisely the kind of thing I have been thinking about constantly since I put in the bid. I am a natural at always imagening the worst case scenario and worrying over it.

    This is also why I feel safer with a crane lifting the machine than jacks or similar on the bottom, which I feel is less stable.

    P.S. one lesson I gather from that is to lower the table support completely to shift the weight downwards. And also leave the table on to keep more weight at the base. The vertical head might be removed...

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    Yes, Gravity always wins.....and failures will always happen at the worst time...
    Case in point: The FP3NC i have at home was dropped off of a lift gate when being moved by its previous owner.....
    Machine was well off the ground when one of the linkage pins that keeps the gate level failed and the entire machine toppled to the ground!



    Cheers Ross

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    Are the machines scrap after falls like this, I assume they are repairable most of the time?

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    Depends on the machine and who is involved i guess....
    I got that machine for the cost to move it to the SF Bay Area from Oregon.....Owner just wanted it gone.

    Since you asked.....At present it might be the nicest FP3NC in the US (mechanically)....(Still has some paint damage from the fall and worst, the lift by a tow truck operator to right the machine)....
    At present i have :
    Scraped all way surfaces and verified truth of axis movements to within .0001" /14" .
    Re-Ground vertical box ways
    Re-worked all three ball screws with new balls and adjusted backlash. Checked all for straight.
    New or rebuilt all axis thrust bearings
    Rebuilt to include new rollers in horizontal spindle.
    New way oil pump (broken on crash)
    Replaced damaged wiring to the control (glass scale output cables)
    Rebuilt all three glass scales to include new bulbs and new dust seals.
    Replaces all ball and roller bearings in spindle gearbox.
    Hard chromed and ground to fit bearings on the ends of several shafts in the gear box....
    Aligned both the "X" and "Z" ball screws to account for changes during scraping.....
    Replaced some "Turcite" (coming un-glued) and replaced Turcite on tapered gibs to account for scraping changes.
    Rebuilt vertical head bolt locating "pop-out" sockets (not the result of the fall...but rather stupid operators)
    Replaced all seals to include spindle draw bar hydraulic rotary seals.
    Rebuilt the hydraulic pump and check valves....
    Rebuilt the chip pan and enclosure.....
    Changed out both key pads for the control to "native" Dialog 4 buttons that have the factory engraved figures on the faces of the keys (not stick on labels that many conversions have)
    Added LCD display for the control in the factory enclosure.....
    Added DNC capability to the control (D4)
    Rebuilt the 'Flip Head" lock out cam and top slide roller setup (made and fitted new cam plate and eccentric shaft)
    Replaced all way wipers
    Replaced all way bellows
    Replaced rear "Y" slide top aluminum segmented cover.

    Have literally disassembled and inspected every part of this machine.....
    Not a job that someone who is sane would pursue...but i did it because i wanted the experience at least once in my life..


    Cheers Ross

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    Good to hear it wasn't turned into scrap. I would like to do a restoration on this machine as well to some degree.

    Scraping is something I have wanted to learn but that will have to go on the back burner, I need to find and invest in a surface plate, and it should ideally be big enough for use as a reference surface for the Deckel.

    But with this purchase I will not be buying stuff for a while.

    A cosmetic restoration though I could do first. I like the grey Deckel color over the green, I have looked into the color and RAL 7010, 7016, 7005, 7042, 7043 are potential color codes. Will have to inspect closer when I get it.

    Now I believe the machines are not just painted but are covered with a "putty" and made smooth, then primed, then painted.


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