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  1. #401
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    Bruce is a very bright guy...thinks things out well....Makes some good arguments here for Brazing.
    Me, i'm a bit more of a seat of the pants guy....
    My sense is that braze is over kill, the screws will be plenty strong enough unless you over tighten the gib adjustment and fail to lubricate your machine....
    Use high strength bolts...my choice, 12.9 reduced head height Allen cap screws.....Fit with Loctite 272 and you are done...off to the next problem.

    Further, my belief is that a propane or "Mapp" gas torch might have enough heat at the flame, but for brazing you have to account for the thermal absorption of the entire part and that single fuel torch
    will require too much soak time to get the entire area hot enough to flow the brass.....Additionally the time trying to get to temp will promote oxidation of the gib (iron) and likely kill its fluxing and
    adhesion of the brass.....Generally brass will not "whet" well to iron so the full soak joint you might expect using brass will likely not happen especially in the home shop.

    If you are determined to braze the parts some additional information....Do not grind the surface of the iron....that will smear the free graphite from the iron into the pores and make a joint of poor
    quality. Finish the iron joint surface using a hand file or chisel....Your steel part does not have this problem or requirement.

    Cheers Ross

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    I am not determined to braze it, I do not believe I will as I don't think it's going to be a high stress area unless the same scenario repeats itself. But I am always curious to know more, especially about filler material selection. It is knowledge of a type that will probably come in handy sooner or later.

    What you say of thermal absorption makes sense, in TIG welding, welding at a lower current will (perhaps counter intuitively) result in more heat soaking into the part, as opposed to welding on a higher current, because it takes longer to weld with a lower current.

    By the way I believe this gib is steel and not cast iron based on the appearance of the break in post #201.

  3. #403
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    Ross, thanks for the kind words! I was assuming that the gib is steel or semi-steel rather than cast iron, so the solder would wet easily.

    Denis, given that Peter and Ross are both more experienced than me, I am sure that the screws and loctite are enough. What's the next step? Are you going to pull off the support and clean out the grease?

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    I would also leave it as it is. That screwed on part is better than original, since steel is better at tension and bending than cast iron.
    Futhermore, you'll get likely get distortion problems, ie bent gib, if you braze it. Not worth it, IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Denis, given that Peter and Ross are both more experienced than me, I am sure that the screws and loctite are enough. What's the next step? Are you going to pull off the support and clean out the grease?
    Next step was going to be that and I tried, but there is no maneuvering the crane to where it needs to go with the long extension legs. I am going to go to the hardware store and see if they got some suitable steel profile to make a new set of extension legs, 70x40 rectangular perhaps that will sit much closer to the ground and be able to get under benches. Half the length of the originals is my plan. Fortunately the snow has mostly melted outside so I can get to my welding table. It's pretty cold still though, -11C today.

  6. #406
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    OK got the material, 80x40 is what I found at the local store. Cut and welded them up today. All I need is to find a suitable pair of castors now and I should have a much nimbler crane.






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  8. #407
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    OK I finished the crane mod last night and lifted the saddle off today.

    I realized I did have a table! One of the filing cabinets made for a suitable place to put it down. I lifted it again and put it down the other side up after this was taken.









    After some cleaning I inspected the gears and found no damage. There was grease in the ball bearing that holds the horizontal shaft, I got rid of it as I cleaned but will replace it before reassembly. Not sure how often I ought to replace that, maybe it says in the manual.



    Nut goes into the ultrasonic cleaner


    A lot of chips that are really well stuck, had to resort to brake cleaner in the end. Scrubbing and kerosene wasn't doing it.










    Backing plates had no damage, only the same pattern of more wear towards one side:








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    Removed the back plate of the saddle. Pictures are after I cleaned up. I mostly just sprayed brake cleaner in there and wiped away as much as possible. The 2nd picture though didn't really have any grease inside, it looked pretty clean when I opened it up.





    I wouldn't like take it apart any further now but I must re-read Bruces thread.

    EDIT:
    OK I see now, remove the aluminuim plugs on each side (destructive, but new ones can be turned), then I can punch down the plugs into the passage and push them out sideways which will give greater access to the oil channels and also be able to look at the piece of felt that drips oil onto the gears in picture 1.

    Getting at the copper tube looks more problematic and I don't know I want to disassemble that much.

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    Followup question, should I be able to rotate the drive shaft by hand? I am absolutely not able to do that. I can rotate the lead screw but not the drive shaft. Is it just hard to rotate without something to increase the grip?

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    In gear or out of gear ??
    Out of gear it should rotate freely
    In gear it has a decent amount of drag
    You can help a bit with the handwheel and feel if all is smooth

    Peter

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    I have tried with with the control lever in all positions just to be sure. I have not been able to rotate the drive shaft in any positions. With the gear lever in neutral I can easily rotate the lead screw and that in turn rotates the hand wheel for moving the saddle up and down.

    But the drive shaft does not move when I do that and I can't make it move even when the lever is in neutral.

    I did not try and use the hand wheel when engaging a gear, I will do that and see what happens.

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    Great progress! If you put the Z/X control lever in the neutral position, it should be easy to turn the drive shaft. But make sure that the saddle is not sitting on any of the levers/linkages which control the clutches, since you might engage one of them without meaning to.

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    That might just be the thing, there is a clutch on the bottom, I did not see it so I did not remember it until you mentioned it. Might be the reason.

    EDIT: Nope that was not it. Both clutches are free to move and are in neutral. Doesn't make a lick of difference and with the Z-axis gears engage in either direction I can't move it with help of the handwheel either. I guess this means further disassembly is required to see what is up.

    EDIT 2:
    Went back out and worked at it some more, even lifted it up to see if I had missed something but everything was in order. Finally I was able to make it turn, not easily but I can get it turned around now when in gear using the handwheel. But no chance of me rotating the shaft when it's free. I guess that's not proper.

    EDIT 3:
    Current theory is old, dried grease in the bronze bearings are what's causing this. Been given the advice to gently heat to loosen it up and allow for easier disassembly and cleaning.
    Last edited by DennisCA; 03-12-2019 at 05:41 AM.

  16. #414
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    Turns pretty easily now. I have started disassembly and I removed the tapered pin A as per the manual. But dear lord it was stuck good... Had to drill it to get it out.



    And the tapered pin B... I honestly can't see which end is the bigger so I don't know where to begin and they can be stuck so good I can't just try and tap a side and see which works. tried to reach in with calipers but it was difficult and I could not see a difference with those.

    I note the manual calls them dowel pins though, perhaps they are not tapered, just a really tight friction fit? I thought the A pin looked tapered though.

  17. #415
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    That pin will most likely be drilled and reamed the same as the one above that you already removed.....
    If the upper is a taper pin then "B" will be as well...
    The big end will be on the same side as it was with pin "A"...
    Cheers Ross

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    When I drill those damned tapered pins I drill from both sides Less chance of total misalignment
    and you only have to drill through the outer part to be able to take it apart
    The remaining part in the shaft you can drill out on a milling machine or pilar drill then


    Peter

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    Everyone who works on these machines hates the taper pins. They are really meant to be a permanent connection, not a removable one, and after they are bashed in place and slightly corroded for 50 years, they are almost welded in. Most of them will need to be drilled out, then re-reamed and replaced with new ones.

    So we all have to develop tools and methods to deal with them, and the advice that Ross and Peter is providing is a good start. You might also want to make yourself some "collars" that help you center and guide the drill when you drill them out. Get yourself a SHARP "CNC spotting drill" to start the holes
    spotting-drill-section-pic.jpg
    You will also need to make a slide hammer for removing blind taper pins that have an internal thread, build up a collection of 1:50 taper reamers, purchase or make a handful of new taper pins, and set up a tapered holder for threading the pins on a lathe.

    When I worked on my FP2, I think I had to remove 10 or 12 of these pins. Almost every one of them was a battle. It might seem like a small thing, but it's a significant fraction of the work. So keep your cool, don't expect it to be quick or easy, and plan to invest some time in making tools that will help you to do it better.

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    Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. My first stop was going to get some new punches. I am thinking ones with concave or cupped faces that can conform better to the shape of the pin.

    I like the idea of pushers, but I am not sure there is room for them here.


    Making a slide hammer will definitely be useful.... Got some purchases to make I see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I like the idea of pushers, but I am not sure there is room for them here.
    I like the idea of pushers also but don't think that they work. You need impact/shock. You'd be better off making a collar that holds the punch in exactly the right place and orientation so that you can concentrate on hitting it hard and on center with the hammer.

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    By the way when you say "You will also need to make a slide hammer for removing blind taper pins that have an internal thread" where do you find those?

    I understand the "screw" on the left in this picture is a tapered pin, but that's an external M5 thread. Are there also variants with internal threads?

    https://i.imgur.com/HM7HMYWh.jpg


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