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  1. #481
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    I just don't understand why would pins not work? It's basically the same design as your own tool in your thread, the difference is you have milled it from a solid piece of steel whereas the other is uses pins pressed in place, but functionality they appear to me to be nearly identical?

    Is a single piece design like yours so much stronger and the requirements so high that a pinned design is unfeasible?

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    I might be missing something, but aren't pins cylindrical? Castle nut has rectangular slots where a wrench with respectively rectangular protrusions is meant to mate.

    I guess that, lacking any other option you could work with pins provided that you have provision for centering the tool (which you will need in any case to center a dished washer below the ring nut).

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    I'm thinking of a cylindrical tool like the first one showed, which would be auto-centering around the shaft it goes over. The mating surfaces using pins would be smaller and suboptimal. But would it be good enough?

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    Alright, that's what I had thought.

    As I said, I guess it will work. You mill probably distort the nut's slot a bit when exercising Singer's advice

    " Franz said that you really need to get this TIGHT. He said to strike the wrench with a 1 kilo hammer. Don't fool around, get this TIGHT",

    but if the pins can take it I guess it will work. Improvise a spacer to keep the wrench pressed against the face of the nut (on top of having it centered) so that it's won't slip out. Maybe file/grind a flat on the tightening side of the pins as well to spread the contact area?

    Anyhow, enough said, you know what you're doing....

    BR,
    Thanos

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    We'll have to see, I don't know myself, I don't got any tool steel and I am not able to easily just go buy some. I am looking at commercial lock ring sockets as well. If I could find something that fits / can be modified.

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    Let me know if you need dimensions, I can measure the tool (spindle is safe inside the quill )

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    Some words of caution here....Not all FP2 spindles are built the same......
    My FP2 (first gen) with the motor in the base, does not have the spindle that uses tapered inner race bearings...nor does it have the castellated nut at the end to make all tight, but rather
    direct running needle rollers at the front of the spindle (both horizontal and vertical) ...Those spindle setups use an adjusting ring to set the actual end float...no spacer as in Thang's setup...
    My point is that Dennis spindle might not be the same as that shown by Thang.....Just saying....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Some words of caution here....Not all FP2 spindles are built the same......
    My FP2 (first gen) with the motor in the base, does not have the spindle that uses tapered inner race bearings...nor does it have the castellated nut at the end to make all tight, but rather
    direct running needle rollers at the front of the spindle (both horizontal and vertical) ...Those spindle setups use an adjusting ring to set the actual end float...no spacer as in Thang's setup...
    My point is that Dennis spindle might not be the same as that shown by Thang.....Just saying....
    Cheers Ross
    Right Ross, I have seen also other (more minor) differences between 500mmX-motor in base FP2s. Needle roller spindles are easier to overhaul, but not adjustable in radial play sadly.

    A minor correction for completeness Ross: the spacer in my spindle controls the axial position of the tapered inner race, thus controlling the radial play. Axial end float is adjusted with a threaded ring with holes for pin wrench, I guess similar to yours.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post

    A minor correction for completeness Ross: the spacer in my spindle controls the axial position of the tapered inner race, thus controlling the radial play.
    Thanos
    Yes, sorry miss stated, should have gotten that after all the discussion on your setup....good to have the proper description here....
    Cheers Ross

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    Well the horizontal spindle is on hold for now until I find some material to make a tool from I started removing more parts from the saddle to make a refinish easier, the z-wheel assembly was removed and I will remove the XZ-lever today. I think it's just a matter of pulling it out, I unscrewed it from the ball joint by accident even and there is another nut holding it in place. Then I will also pull out the "base" around the XZ-lever so I can get the best access to all the surfaces for surface prep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Well the horizontal spindle is on hold for now until I find some material to make a tool from.
    I wanted to suggest that you leave the horizontal and vertical spindles alone, and get the support finished and back on the machine. The spindles are delicate and potentially risky work, and unless you have evidence that something is wrong with them, IMO you are better off getting the machine back together and using it for a little while first. Removing the spindles takes an hour and you can do that in the future to clean and regrease them. But I can't imagine that using them in a casual way for a few weeks or months is going to degrade them significantly.

    Why? You have spent a lot of time working on the machine but have not used it. It would be smart to get some running time to discover if there are other issues or problems that need to be addressed. So concentrate on that first. You can do the spindles later.

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    Really? I'm a bit paranoid about the vertical spindle to be honest, if something happened there it'd be disaster. I think the horizontal spindle isn't made like that though (i.e. the spindle itself is not the inner race and so on, but uses bearings conventionally) so I'm not as paranoid abot that.

    As for running it and using it, well after it's back together I will start looking for tools and accessories for an affordable price. Don't got any end mills or other tools, not even a machine vise or hold downs, zero, zip, nada, zilch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Really? I'm a bit paranoid about the vertical spindle to be honest, if something happened there it'd be disaster.
    Exactly why for the moment I suggest that you leave it alone, unless there is some sign of an issue. I'm not saying to ignore it forever, but to wait.

    I think the horizontal spindle isn't made like that though (i.e. the spindle itself is not the inner race and so on, but uses bearings conventionally) so I'm not as paranoid about that.
    I think the horizontal spindle is similar to the vertical one, but perhaps there are several designs. For my machine there is a cross-sectional drawing of the horizontal spindle in the last pages of the manual.

    As for running it and using it, well after it's back together I will start looking for tools and accessories for an affordable price. Don't got any end mills or other tools, not even a machine vise or hold downs, zero, zip, nada, zilch.
    I got quite a bit of tooling with my machine, but much of it was not usable because there were no suitable arbors etc. It took a while to accumulate these. But if you have nothing, then I would suggest a simple solution at first. Purchase an ER40 or OZ collet chuck with an SK40 taper and S20x2 pull stud, for example like this:

    Spannzangenfutter SK40 S20x2 ER40 z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay

    or like this:

    Spannzangenfutter SK40 S20x2, 7Spannzangen ER40 Rl. max. 8mm Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay

    Then get a set of solid carbide endmills, say 6, 8, 10, 12, 16mm in diameter.

    This won't do everything that you will want, but for a couple of hundred Euros it will at least get you started.

    A decent vice is important. I would suggest a Hilma hydraulic one with 125mm wide jaws, which was the standard size for your FP2. In Germany you can find these in good shape on Ebay for around 400 Euros. If you are patient and/or lucky you might of course find one for much less.

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    Well I actually have a few tool holders, but no tools. I got one ER collet holder and a boring head, an unknown collet (see post 72) and some horizontal arbors. But nothing to hold work. My budget is a lot smaller than you think, I will be looking in the 100 - 150 euro range for a vise. I am hoping to find some deals, being patient and waiting...


    Holy moly it's bad to use the phone site... Accidentally deleted my post I think.

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    Well finally got some 2k epoxy paint and was able to query an expert for selection of paints. I was considering polyurethane paint, but went with the epoxy base because it does not require primer, infact it works as primer for other paints, so if I am not happy with the result of this paint, I could just buy some glossier paint and apply over. This is semigloss 50 rated and also high build.

    I looked up the various grey RAL codes for deckels that I've found on this forum and the one that best matched the part I had with me was RAL 7010.

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    Got a bit side tracked with the accessories. Had some uncertainties regarding the tooling and then I found myself putting the things in the ultrasonic cleaner and cleaning them up. I also found a drive ring, which I thought I had not received.

    These are two collet systems, one ER-32 collet holder with a single collet. It's not an SK40 I believe because the drive ring does not fit. The other collet holder is an SK40 though, but no idea what kind of collets these are. I also am not sure how it is supposed to work.

    Drive ring:


    Unknown collet system:





    I think this is the original box, also has a label that says deckel on it.


    Er-32 collet holder


    I think it might be BT40?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Er-32 collet holder

    I think it might be BT40?
    I'm not sure, but one of these thin drive rings (just 1mm thick) might be what is needed:
    Mitnehmerring 1 mm NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine. | eBay
    which is for DIN2080 and DIN69871.

    You can also make one yourself, see my post here:
    https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...spindle-311800

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    I have to say I am getting somewhat confused. Or rather, it feels as if I am getting a grip on all these differences between SK40, ISO40, CAT40, BT40 and whatever else. I was finding it e asier to think of it in terms of DIN 2080 and DIN 69871 instead.

    But now I also learn that the thread on the Deckel pull stud is something different than standard. I had assumed they where all M16 in euro machines and some inch equivalent like 5/8s in america.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    But now I also learn that the thread on the Deckel pull stud is something different than standard.
    This is generally called S20x2

    S = "Sägengewind" or "Sawtooth thread" (because the cross section looks like saw teeth). In English: "Buttress thread"
    20 = 20mm OD
    2 = 2mm pitch

    Here is one drawing showing the thread profile, which has 5 and 45 degree angles.
    Where can I find the Deckeldapter studding
    You can find other drawings, and more information such as insert types for cutting this thread, by searching the PM forums:

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    here is some info from the Engineering Black Book, a very handy book to have around the shop, I suggest you buy it
    note that there is a difference between "buttress" and "sawtooth" threads
    .jpgb.jpgc.jpgd.jpge.jpg

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