Deckel FP2 acquired (Preliminary) - Page 34
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 34 of 35 FirstFirst ... 2432333435 LastLast
Results 661 to 680 of 686
  1. #661
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Holy moly these nuts are stuck on there good. I got the wrenches but I am getting nowhere with them, think the material on the rings have even started to deform. There is a ring in between the two lock nuts that I think have caused them to bind up really really tight. Any tips on where to go next.

    Edit: Got it loose, just a question of applying enough force I guess, or applying it enough times. The nuts are loos and the spindle is apart.

  2. #662
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    OK here are the images of the vertical spindle:





    The red stuff had me worried at first, but it's just old grease.


    Fortunately it looks to be in good condition as I can tell.




    Spindle / inner race with the smaller cage removed


    Close up of the cage after some quick cleaning


    I would like to soak the cages in something like lacquer thinner but not sure if that could possibly do any harm. Kerosene is safer but I know from experience it wouldn't get it really clean. Diesel might work too, I think that should be fine with brass.

  3. Likes ballen liked this post
  4. #663
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Country
    GREECE
    Posts
    442
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    118
    Likes (Received)
    104

    Default

    I am not sure what one should make of this. Seems like they had put too much grease. Also, the color does not match the Kluber grease. Not that this means anything...
    Measure radial play as per Ross's instructions to get it over with and you'll ready to use your machine!

  5. #664
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Doing a dry fit right now, everything cleaned with diesel and a tooth brush and then brake cleaner, only tightened one lock nut finger tight.

    Currently testing with an indicator. I tried a variety of ways, using the vice but did not feel it resulted in anything usable so I mounted the spindle back in the vertical head and sat it down, plan was to use the magnetic base against the casting but the magnet just didn't get a solid connection on the casting, too thick a layer of paint perhaps So I had to resort to this setup, got use out of my surface plate now:



    The indicator (2um) is moving consistently 3 ticks on the dial which to me seems pretty good, at one spot it felt like 3.5 ticks but otherwise it was very consistent. Given cosine error magnifying the error scale this sounds like extremely little runout or play, less than .006mm. Sounds too good in fact. To clarify, I am rotating the spindle and then pushing up and down on the spindle to test the play/runout, that is what I get to be .006mm.

    EDIT: Also I thought this was interesting, note the thrust bearings, not like Ross's where only one side is concave. These are SKF ball bearings, I wonder if they are original.

  6. #665
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    5,631
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    252
    Likes (Received)
    1407

    Default

    To adjust those bevel gears Klingelnberg has some documentation of how to do it Also a indication of play is given
    If you want it just give me a PM I do not want to post it here for copyright reassons
    You can messure play by rolling some lead or tin wire through the gears and measure thickness of the flattend wire then



    Peter

  7. #666
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Peter I had not considered that but I would be interested in the documentation anyway. I'll send you a PM.

    Anyway I have reassembled the spindle.








  8. #667
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1741
    Likes (Received)
    2255

    Default

    Everything spotless on reassembly!!!!!!!
    This is work better done on your kitchen table rather than out in the shop.....
    Still air , no breeze blowing about.
    Spindle should run smooth immediately upon assembly..no ticks or hitches to its rotation...
    If in doubt, disassemble, clean , lube and assemble again.
    This is a spot where there is no room for "maybe" .

    Cheers Ross

  9. #668
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1741
    Likes (Received)
    2255

    Default

    On reassembly, you should "run in" the spindle.
    Start at the slowest speed, run for 10-15 minutes..
    Increase the speed and run another 10-15.
    Take the speed up several steps at a time till you get to max RPM....
    Run 30 + minutes at max...monitor the temp. Should not get uncomfortably hot
    Some heat is normal, means things are running with little clearance....
    Be sure the end float is within range....0001-.0002"+ end play.
    Can't run those thrust bearings at zero clearance.
    Don't forget that there is a horizontal spindle as well........
    Cheers Ross

  10. Likes DennisCA liked this post
  11. #669
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Everything spotless on reassembly!!!!!!!
    This is work better done on your kitchen table rather than out in the shop.....
    Still air , no breeze blowing about.
    Spindle should run smooth immediately upon assembly..no ticks or hitches to its rotation...
    If in doubt, disassemble, clean , lube and assemble again.
    This is a spot where there is no room for "maybe" .

    Cheers Ross
    As it happens I did do it twice, didn't like the sound at first. But it's better I do it in the shop. The house has active ventilation and the shop only passive so the dust settles out better in the shop if you let it be a while. And in the house I got two kids who like to be all over everything I do and touch everything, oh and now also two kittens with very much the same behavior. The spindle would be full of cat hair if I tried doing it in the house

  12. Likes AlfaGTA, ballen liked this post
  13. #670
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Been reading Bruces thread on the lubrication issue and so far I have understood it as the following:
    Long-reach FP2 head (from circa 1964)

    Region 1.
    There is an oil nipple under the brake ring, bearing oil goes in there. There is a seal or gasket over the nuts in the spindle so the oil doesn't go down into the spindle or into the bevel gears. I would put NBU-15 grease on the bevel gears since it seems the only way to lubricate is to remove the head so it's not done too often.

    Region 2.
    The ball bearing behind the bevel gear on the long reach head gets what in terms of lubrication? Bruce mentioned that excess oil from the vertical head should make it here, and it does look like something like that could be going on when looking at the schematic, but when I look at images it doesn't appear to be any way the oil gets in there. I think everything in this region should get the NBU-15 grease as it probably sticks better than regular grease. Alternatively the front ball bearing could be replaced with a rubber sealed one.

    Based on the reply by singer that's how it's done for region 2, but you also add oil from abive? Does the oil do anything when everything is greased? Seems maybe it could interfere with the grease to me, maybe make it run off the gears.

    3 and 4 are pretty clear to me.

  14. #671
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,466
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1472
    Likes (Received)
    828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Based on the reply by Singer that's how it's done for region 2, but you also add oil from above? Does the oil do anything when everything is greased? Seems maybe it could interfere with the grease to me, maybe make it run off the gears.
    I've worried about that same point. Next time I see Franz I will ask again about this. I suppose the logic is that the points which are reached by the oil will get lubricated by the oil, and the points that are not reached by the oil will get lubricated by the remaining grease. But like you, I don't really trust this "logic".

  15. #672
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    I'd be interested in hearing more about that, until then I guess I will just grease and then oil. Looking inside the long reach head chamber I am struck by how the cavities on the side look like oil reservoirs in the same vein as on the head stock. Not sure if they have got anything to do with that though.


    Also Ross, in your instructions you specify .0002" (almost 6 um) of end play but the Deckel manual I got specifies only .001mm of end play or just 1 um. I'm a bit confused as to which figure to go with here.

  16. #673
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1741
    Likes (Received)
    2255

    Default

    Think the reality is that adjusting the end float using those locking nuts tightening against each other it would be almost impossible to get .001mm of clearance...even if you could reliably measure it with confidence...
    My value is high, based on the NC spindles (higher speed) ....Personally i would not go smaller than .0001" (.025 mm) Better (safer) to have a bit too much than not enough...


    Cheers Ross

  17. Likes DennisCA liked this post
  18. #674
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Redwood City, CA USA
    Posts
    4,894
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    168
    Likes (Received)
    852

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    would not go smaller than .0001" (.025 mm)
    Uh oh. Check your unit conversions.

  19. #675
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1741
    Likes (Received)
    2255

    Default

    Darn, no wonder those parts did not fit..........................
    Cheers Ross

  20. Likes ballen liked this post
  21. #676
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    I did see that but I understood the meaning was .0025mm, all these zeros, why I write like 2.5 microns instead.

    Anyway. Singer replied to my initial mail I sent them and said I don't need that part. Too bad I already bought the sheet metal then. I would like to start putting it back together ASAP.

  22. #677
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,882
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1741
    Likes (Received)
    2255

    Default

    Don't recall either my FP2 (first gen) or my FP3 having that sheet metal part...but perhaps i just forgot....Maybe this is an extended reach head thing.....
    Cheers Ross

  23. #678
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Don't know how that would work though, the part is between the main casting of the machine and the headstock. Last night I tested the axial play in the vertical spindle and got maybe 4-5 microns. I clamped up the spindle by the inner shaft in the vise and put the indicator on the outer spindle itself, then I pushed and pulled on the spindle in both directions. No real setup was needed, I just tightened the lock-nuts a bit.

    Then I reassembled the vertical head, testing the quill function and it's now smooth as butter compared to before. It's too bad some of these parts are really worn, tried to clean them up best I can.

    Last edited by DennisCA; 07-13-2019 at 03:39 AM.

  24. #679
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Since Singer said the part is not needed, and I did not get the sheet metal in the mail this week I decided to go on ahead with reassembly of the head stock.



    Also completed reassembly of all the other components to the vertical head and plugged the hole on the side. I left it unfinished instead of painting it.



    Then I proceeded to work on the horizontal spindle as it needs to be installed before I resinstall the long reach vertical head.



    Was stuck pretty good








    Removing the rear bearings:





    Taking note of the placement of the components and orientation as I lay them out.





    I didn't really photo the rest, I cleaned some more and I greased all the bearings with the same grease and reassembled. Then I set the axial play with the lock nut until it read 6 microns or .0002" I think that's enough, the manual did not say what amount of end play there ought to be.

  25. #680
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    53
    Likes (Received)
    114

    Default

    Weird, I did have one more picture of measuring the play, wonder why it got cut:


    P.S.

    I am going through this thread with the disassembly fresh in my mind:
    1964 FP2 horizontal spindle adjustment

    So far after reading just the first post, I would say that I have exactly the same issue as Thanos, parts 6 & 7 does not actually adjust anything, it just holds the bearings roughly in place no matter how tightly I try and get that ring. It seems our spindles are alike. But what I did was that I adjusted the play using the lock nut 9. This was obviously how it was done by the earlier operators. I am really confused by this, because now we have two spindles with the same issue. Is this indicative of something wrong in the spindle? Did Deckel make some odd spindles with a different layout?

    I must keep reading...

    Also went out and tested the radial play on the spindle, at the rear it is .01mm and at the front only 4-6 microns.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •