Deckel FP2 acquired (Preliminary) - Page 46
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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by sneebot View Post
    Never dealt with an FP2 chain but have removed one from an FP4. The FP4 chain had a removeable link, no (special) tool required.
    Thank you, I took a closer look and indeed one link was removable. Very good thinking on their part, that.

    I have now removed the entire lower shaft. It goes out the front and not the back.









    The lower shaft components all look to be in fine shape except the front bearing I should probably replace it, it feels worn and the bearing at the rear had some kind of cover that has been destroyed somehow. Now I can properly clean out the entire gearbox. It's for the best to take it apart I can tell, my working on the upper shaft had left all kinds of debris on the lower components and bearings, would not have been good for the components to leave it as is.

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    Good read!
    Nice to see the breakthrough with the shaft removal.
    Reminds me of my own mill rebuild project, which has been idle for a long time now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    The lower shaft components all look to be in fine shape except the front bearing I should probably replace it, it feels worn and the bearing at the rear had some kind of cover that has been destroyed somehow.
    Deckel had the good sense to use standard bearings here. Good quality replacements cost ~10 Euros each online, so it makes sense to replace any which are not in very good shape.

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    Interesting that the schematic specifies a 6305 2RS bearing for the back, fully sealed bearing on both sides, whereas the one I removed only had a seal on one side, presumably so it could be lubricated by the oil in the gearbox. I wonder if it would be better to have fully sealed bearings at both ends, or if the gearbox oil is better.

    EDIT: I am reading on the net that people do indeed use sealed bearings in gearboxes, it keeps dirt and debris out of the bearing. I am pretty sure that's why the existing bearings are sounding a little worn too. I am now considering replacing all the bearings with sealed ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post

    EDIT: I am reading on the net that people do indeed use sealed bearings in gearboxes, it keeps dirt and debris out of the bearing. I am pretty sure that's why the existing bearings are sounding a little worn too. I am now considering replacing all the bearings with sealed ones.
    I disagree!
    Problem with running sealed bearings in an oil environment is that the oil will get past the seals diluting the grease, and leaving the bearing running with neither grease or oil lube....
    Bearing "seals" are not very effective at keeping things like oil form entering the bearing...In a dry environment the double sealed bearing is fine with grease....but in a wet setup not so much.

    My technique is to remove the inner seals from the 2RS bearing, giving a bit of restriction for the oil to escape to the outside (leak).

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I disagree!
    Problem with running sealed bearings in an oil environment is that the oil will get past the seals diluting the grease, and leaving the bearing running with neither grease or oil lube....
    Bearing "seals" are not very effective at keeping things like oil form entering the bearing...In a dry environment the double sealed bearing is fine with grease....but in a wet setup not so much.

    My technique is to remove the inner seals from the 2RS bearing, giving a bit of restriction for the oil to escape to the outside (leak).

    Cheers Ross
    You mean Ross that grease will be diluted with oil and run away, but oil that managed to get passed the seal will not be enough for effective lubrication. Makes sense, hadn't heard about this approach before. In some BMW bike gearboxes I've rebuilt, I went by the book and left only the outer seal on the bearings, but wasn't aware of the rationale behind this.

    Thanks
    Thanos

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    I'm looking at one bearing for the upper shaft. NUP 206 is the specification. Looks like it has a steel cage. Now my local bearing supplier has all the bearings I need, but the NUP 206 bearing they have of a reputable brand (SKF, FAQ, Koyo) is brass caged. Anyone think this could be an issue? Ideally I'd get all my bearings from one place.

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    Generally bronze or brass caged bearings are considered a upgrade over steel caged versions...Often are more expensive.
    Wouldn't worry about the change...It will be fine.
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross sent you a PM but your inbox is full??

    John

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    John:
    Think my in box is cleared out, at least for now...
    Sorry stuff there i haven't seen. Usually get notifications, but maybe if its full then that stops.

    Think i left some folks hanging with no response...will try and be better.
    Cheers Ross

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    As I alluded to earlier, I cleaned out the sump on the FP2, been putting it off because it was nasty work.







    Corner to the left was difficult to reach






    This is what the pump sucks up fluid through. When I got it up it was covered in brown goop but also wrapped with a fine mesh held in place with steel wire. Looked like an addition after the fact.


    Inside was a coarser mesh that looked factory installed, I removed it and used the finer mesh to make a new one that fit inside instead.


    I'm not quite done with cleaning the sump out yet, once the machine is back together and the pump is running I will fill it with warm water & potassium hydroxide and flush it out. I am wondering if i can get it clean enough to paint with 2k epoxy paint....

    After that... I am not sure, use the machine with coolant or not... I have before used Ballistol and water in a squirt bottle, this worked well and never rusted anything on my lathe. But this summer I bought commercial coolant concentrate and mixed up that in a squirt bottle and it's nasty stuff man. Attacked the zinc coating of some sheet metal coversI had made for the lathe and left a sticky residue and caused rust. I really thought a comercial solution would have been better than my homemade ballistol mixture. I am not at all wanting to use up the keg of concentrate I bought if this is how it behaves. Been thinking if I can sell the keg of concentrate and buy ballistol instead.

    I've that some like Ross use neat oil in their coolant systems instead, apparently it lasts decades, just topped up now and then. And never any rust issues. But you don't want to use it with cast iron then, and it smokes and is messier and has no real cooling effect. I do think the few times I would want to use coolant I would want it for the cooling effect too.

    I've also considered making my own fog buster instead and move it between the lathe and mill, that would use a lot less coolant and make less of a mess. But it also feels like a waste to have two machines equipped with coolant pumps and not use it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    ...


    I've that some like Ross use neat oil in their coolant systems instead, apparently it lasts decades, just topped up now and then. And never any rust issues. But you don't want to use it with cast iron then, and it smokes and is messier and has no real cooling effect. I do think the few times I would want to use coolant I would want it for the cooling effect too.

    I've also considered making my own fog buster instead and move it between the lathe and mill, that would use a lot less coolant and make less of a mess. But it also feels like a waste to have two machines equipped with coolant pumps and not use it...
    Hi there Dennis,

    nice work cleaning out that sump!

    Regarding cutting fluids, I guess the reason that coolant is not so suited for hobbyist is that it needs to be replaced regularly, or else it goes bad (I don't know how accurate this is with modern coolants though). So, cutting oil it is for me as well, though not through the pump, someday maybe. Why do you think cutting oil won't have enough cooling properties?
    I'd avoid fog buster on a non-enclosed machine, I wouldn't want ending up breathing this thing...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    I'm basing a lot of what I am saying based on searching the PM forums exhaustively and noting peoples experiences. I personally also felt that the soluble oil mixed cooled better than cutting oil when I have used it. I also agree that the oil makes a right mess of things, the cutting fluids viscosity made it easier to clean up. Compared to the oil I have at hand anyway.

    I thought the fog buster was designed for the express purpose of preventing the breathing of coolant? It doesn't mist the coolant but instead keeps it as small droplets.

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    Water based coolant has much better cooling capabilities than oil.
    This is also one thing with what im pondering. My use is so little that oil would be better but it is more expensive and doesnt cool so much than water bssed coolants

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    I am leaning towards coolant over oil right now. On the basis I can always swap over later if I don't care for it...

    Even if the brand I got now (I don't recommend Tilia Universal from virtasen kauppa FYI) I know that Ballistol worked wonders for me, and surely there has to be some other brands of better quality than this.

    I think the sump covers though could be improved on to better prevent ingress of debris and evaporation.

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    Agreed that water-based coolants cool 'more' than oil, but won't the oil cool enough, that's what I am wondering. Except for the price I would prefer oil all over my machine than something water-based. Plus that coolant will need replacing regularly I've heard...

    Anyhow, I guess it was coolant that these machines where built to be used with....

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    The major turn off with waterbased coolants ia that it geta everywhere, when water evaporatea it gets sticky and starts to rust the ways etc exposed metal. It clogs also holes etc etc... Oil is best for the machine condition and with hss tools it works great.

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    Water based coolants need constant maintenance to remain effective!
    Friction way machines all produce "tramp" oil that will get into the coolant and contaminate it.
    Further water base coolants will all grow algae in time and that will stink and for some folks will produce skin rashes.....
    Further as the water in the coolant evaporates it needs to be refreshed and the concentration monitored (refractometer) to remain effective
    Also some coolant mixes can be very destructive to paint.(if that matters)

    Some of these problems can be reduced by skimming the coolant to remove the tramp oil and bubbling air through the coolant (constantly) to reduce algae formation....
    Its not a simple deal ...not to mention that corrosion can also be the result from water based coolants when they dry out on machine surfaces.....

    Clean up is definitely easier with water based materials as they are lighter and contain less oil so removal with simple cleaners is generally effective...

    For my money i just don't want to screw with it......
    In fact i use clear cutting oil in my machines including my CNC's mills...now to be fair, i am not running production here, if i was the situation would be different.

    Other considerations...the "micro-drip" coolant setups are fine for lots of work if you have good ventilation. But in my experience they are not very good when drilling holes.
    There a brush with cutting oil or a squeeze bottle works well at getting the oil to the point of the cut.

    Cheers Ross

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    Specific heat capacity of oil is approximately half that of water. I can't see why it wouldn't be fine for home shop work. Just flood it and if it smokes can't you slow down the metal removal rate a bit until it is acceptable?
    With all the disadvantages Ross lists I won't go near water based for my hobby use.

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    I'm still not sure... I read so many different things on the net, so many different experiences. I can say that people can have nearly opposite experiences, some seem to never have any problems with tramp oil or the like.

    Locally I have found a dealer that sells a mineral oil based flood coolant and also a way oil (iso 68) that is compatible with the coolant, they are of the same brand and recommended for use together. That sounds interesting.

    I've also had a brand recommendation for neat cutting oil, Castrol Ilocut 486. I'm looking into it as well. But I can guess it owuld very expensive indeed to fill the sumps on both machines with this liquid.

    I do know when I have used the coolant in a squirt bottle, the results have been fantastic. I know it works super well for me.


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