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  1. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    you can't really tell from this "print" anything, what one should be seeing is what people look for when finish scraping - high spots (gear tooth contact patches) will be light - no spotting compound, because it is pushed to the edges of the contact patch (light dye is not a problem, because it will be thick enough there), right now, when the contact patch is pushing the compound away, it is also dragging more compound in behind it when it starts to open up, because there is so much of it there

    I have a torn open generic toyota traverse gearbox in my garage, I think there were couple gears there in the differential that would make a good example, it's too late in the day today, but tomorrow I'll try to get a good print and show what I mean, it will be much easier to see what is going on

    edit:
    found a video here showing how the contact pattern should look like (around 22min mark), note that you need at least some braking action going on on the driven gear side
    I've watched that video before. The stuff he uses looks completely different to mine, his also looks to have dried somewhat, I thought these where supposed to be non drying compounds. I'll wipe everything off I think and see if I can reapply more thinly with something else than the brush I used.


    Bruce, I rotated it in both directions and I used the brake ring and also my hand to preload as I turned the shaft using the inching wheel on the back.

    Edit: You might also be correct in your interpretation of the pattern, at least where you indicate it made a more solid contact than elsewhere, I wonder if I should increase the load next time, mount something in the taper to give me more leverage...
    Last edited by DennisCA; 01-24-2020 at 01:52 AM.

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  3. #982
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    Be aware that the pattern generated and the way you have to move the parts relative to each other is opposite when doing a "Hyboid" gear setup (automotive)
    Spiral bevel gearing where the input and output shafting intersect at the gear centers behaves differently.
    Also high horsepower setups like final drives on cars need somewhat different patterns than lower HP transmitting setups.....Autos need to favor the large end of the tooth due to distortion that happens under power...
    Contact at the "toe" is generally not a good setup.

    Try applying the paste using some closed cell packaging foam...You know, the white stuff that is sort of rigid....cut the foam to a dull tapered point that will fit down into the tooth . Dob some paste lightly on the foam and then
    spread the paste to the gear....Generally i put the paste on the ring gear...Don't need all the teeth..maybe a third...the pinion will spread it on to the adjoining teeth. Too much and all you get is a yellow blur.

    You are correct that you must retard the output while moving the input shaft...gotta rotate in both directions to get a pattern on both the drive and coast sides of the tooth...
    Don't forget the backlash...to maintain constant backlash (.003-.005") one needs to move both gears when making a change. Check the backlash over the complete rotation of the ring gear...most are not perfect in that it will be tighter in some spots, looser in others...avoid "zero" lash, gotta have some.

    Most bevel gear sets are engineered to have the toe of both gears at the same height when set properly...of course that is only a starting point, but if the gear tooth circles are not meeting close to the same point at the toe then
    i would be worried...

    Cheers Ross

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  5. #983
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    I don't know how to measure backlash, how is it done? When they measure backlash in the car videos they have access to the gears. I don't however since it's all enclosed.

    And can the other gear even be adjusted?

    I assume the document I have properly shows how to move the gears, it's not for setting up a car.

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    You can measure it like I do on Porsche gearboxes, there it's all done on the outside.

    Lock one side so it can't move at all, I suggest the horizontal gear. Maybe use wood blocking for instance. It's not critical, as long as you have no movement (and don't damage anything!). I'd look at blocking the drive gear (if that is the term, the straight cut gear taking power from the gearbox).

    Then put a tool of suitable size/circumference in the vertical tool holder. Measure the vertical gears outside tooth circumference and put your dial indicator against the tool at the same distance, this will make it possible to measure the backlash.

    Was that enough info for you to understand how to do it? Otherwise I can elaborate on it.

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    I understand what you mean, but I don't think it will work to block the drive gear because there are several other gears between that which will introduce their own backlash. I would need to be able to lock the shaft the pinion gear is mounted on but that's tricky....

    EDIT: I cleaned up the gears again, made sure the pinion was really clean and used alcohol, used some foam like Ross suggested too, as good as I was able to get it. Just not able to get a nice solid color like the compound shown in the video for instance.



    This is Avion gear marking compound FYI.

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    Is it thick like toothpaste? The General Motors stuff I use is.

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    It's pretty thick, perhaps not toothpaste thick, feels like grease with a color to it, maybe some oil added too. Definitely does not dry. I left the stuff from earlier on the gears but it had not dried out in the slightest.

    I'm wondering if I should go pick up some oil paint tomorrow and try it too... I've read some people say that worked real well.

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    I remember struggling to do the same thing with Toyota Landcruiser differentials many years ago. So don't feel bad if it is not the easiest procedure, despite how simple it may look. I think it takes a bit of experience to get the knack of it.

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    Dennis, if you have an air compressor, put a rag behind the gear so that the mess does not get in the bearings, and blow compressed air on the gear. That might thin out the layer of marking compound.

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    Trying another paint, some yellow oil paint in a tube, much thicker this. Didn't go on well using the foam though, trying a brush instead and attempting a pattern. I put an ER-32 collect in the taper and used both the lock ring and the wrench to provide force, in both directions, though it didn't work as well going the other way.



    Pattern:




    I think it went better this time, can't get it on any thinner... starting to think some kind of dry pigment would be better then that is brushed on dry, or in an alcohol solution perhaps that then evaporates.

    EDIT: This is how it patterns with both spacers back in.

    EDIT 2: And if someone still wonders, I don't bother replacing the nut because the fit of the bevel gear is such that it's not needed. Not for these tests anyway.

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    And I took another pattern, with one spacer removed.





    I wasn't able to get as much resistance going backwards so I think that print is under less load than the one going the normal operational direction.



    Based on the guide I might have overshot a little, or I need to move the ring gear upwards. I decided to order 10x 0.2mm shim washers of the 35x45mm size. I am thinking I could bore up the holding plate by a couple of millimeters to 45mm instead, the bore diameter there doesn't seem to be precise, just needs to clear.

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    I tried Dykem hi-spot this morning on the differential gears I mentioned, and just couldn't get a good enough print, getting enough resistance between driving and driven side was also difficult with that set, was going to try some oil paint also and let it dry off somewhat before trying to get the print, but I see you figured it out already, now you see just how much better the print picture looks compared to the first attempt

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    It was quite difficult when I tried with dykem layout fluid too.

    Anyway I was wondering about checking the backlash, I read that you can use a lead or tin wire between the gear teeth and then check their thickness with a micrometer.

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    i suppose you could use plastigauge as well.
    for the lead wire what would happen if you lost it and it fell down somewhere will that be a problem?

    A dial on a set length lever would do the job i would think, maybe even use a lathe drive dog depending on shape of it or just make up something out of whatever you have handy.

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    Yes the problem though is I cannot see how to lock the bevel gear for that.

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    No update on the gears yet, waiting for the new spacer rings. But last night I installed the shear pins I got from Singer and figured I'd test out the feeds and adjust the gibs on the X-table while I was waiting.

    Something is wrong though. When I engage a feed, any feed, there is a *clonk* sound, doesn't sound good at all, the feed will work but the clonk sound repeats, I am not sure how much it repeats as I didn't try.

    I am thinking it's coming from the back of the machine, I had off the side cover (again!) but I am also going to have to remove the back door again and also the motor belts and cover for the chain...

    I never touched the feeds gear box except replace the oil in it. So I can only assume there's something in the back, perhaps something with the chain, perhaps some piece of scrap somewhere I missed. The feeds also worked before.

    Always something.

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    A followup question, seen from the front of the machine, which way should the bevel gear on the long reach head rotate? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

    Same question for the horizontal spindle.

    The inching wheel should run counter clock wise I have read (seen from behind I assume).

    Edit: I mean I am pretty sure everything moves as it should. It's just that, this means the bevel gear on the long reach head rotates clockwise, so the concave face is the side that is engaged during normal operation. I always assumed the convex side would be driving side, I guess it doesn't have to be, but it just feels wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    A followup question, seen from the front of the machine, which way should the bevel gear on the long reach head rotate? Clockwise or counter clockwise?

    Same question for the horizontal spindle.

    The inching wheel should run counter clock wise I have read (seen from behind I assume).
    Hey Dennis,

    not sure I understood your question correctly because I would have thought you knew: these machines run with right-hand tools, that is clock-wise from the tool's point of view.
    This means that, looking at the machine from the front, horizontal spindle rotates counter clockwise and vertical head casting bevel gear rotates clockwise (so that vertical spindle it self rotates clockwise looking down)

    Inching wheel should run clockwise seen from behind unless my body memory fools me.

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    It's just I wanted a reality check. Starting to doubt myself, never trusted my own memory or reasoning that much...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    It's just I wanted a reality check. Starting to doubt myself, never trusted my own memory or reasoning that much...
    :thumb:
    imagine you are a regular right hand drill and rotation directions should be apparent


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