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  1. #1021
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    Yes I suspected that, though I can't entirely rule out some slight misalignment of the screw despite doing my best on that front. But what to do next, adjust it again in the center? And how much resistance should I feel on the hand wheels when its set properly?

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    Hi Dennis,

    Try running your support down near the bottom. Then loosen the Z-axis lead screw nut hold down bolts so it can shift around. Move the support up and down a few times, going right to the bottom, to shift the position of the Z-axis nut to the "natural" position. Then tighten the Z-axis lead screw nut hold down bolts, being careful not to shift the position of the nut.

    Regarding the gibs, Franz Singer's approach is "tighten till the axis does not move easily, then back off half a turn".

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    I did do that procedure ealier Bruce, I think I have gotten is as good as I can on that front.

    It's difficult for me to say what does not move easily means. But if I am supposed to be able to hand feed without wearing myself out, I guess I am the limit for that.

    Another thing is my machine lacks the front bit that locks down the long reach head on the front. We discussed that earlier I remember and my machine misses that part, there are bolt holes for it to mount to as well. I guess I should make it new.

    Not sure what else there is I might have forgotten. Maybe the spindle nuts needs to be tighther, though I set the play there according to instructions so I doubt it.

    The improvised hold downs for the vise might also be a factor. It might also be this is normal and I just lack the experience to tell normal operation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I did do that procedure earlier Bruce, I think I have gotten is as good as I can on that front.
    OK. I had the same problem on my machine, and that fixed it.

    It's difficult for me to say what does not move easily means. But if I am supposed to be able to hand feed without wearing myself out, I guess I am the limit for that.
    Sounds too tight. IMO you are better off a bit too loose than a bit too tight.

    Deckel gibs are a 1:50 slope. So that means if you move the gib 1mm, you open up the gap by 0.020mm = 20 microns. I have not checked the thread pitch of the gib screws, but suppose it is 1mm. Then half a turn moves the gib 0.5mm and creates a 10 micron (0.010mm) gap. [EDIT: maybe they are 1:100 -- I may have forgotten.]

    Another thing is my machine lacks the front bit that locks down the long reach head on the front. We discussed that earlier I remember and my machine misses that part, there are bolt holes for it to mount to as well. I guess I should make it new.
    I think Thanos is also missing that part. He and I corresponded about a better solution, but not done anything further.

    Not sure what else there is I might have forgotten. Maybe the spindle nuts needs to be tighther, though I set the play there according to instructions.
    I suggest you use your machine (cautiously at first) and pay close attention. Probably with time you will understand and sort out some of the remaining issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    ...
    I think Thanos is also missing that part. He and I corresponded about a better solution, but not done anything further.
    ....
    One of these days Bruce....
    (though, if I wanted to do this ATM I wouldn't even be able to buy steel stock with what's going on...)

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Dennis,

    Have you tried making cuts in both the X and the Y directions? Also be sure to lock the axis of the directions you are not cutting in. If the sound is the same in both directions I doubt it is a gib adjustment, it is more likely just the gear train noise is the teeth of the cutter moves in and out of the cut. Tighten the spindle lock down some when you are making the cut and see if the sound changes, this will verify it. That brake according to the manual is actually there to help reduce chatter.

    As far as the clamp you mentioned for the front of the long reach head I wouldn't be too concerned about it. I don't have it either and I don't think it was even considered since there is nothing in the front to mount one on mine. In fact now I keep the rear one on but it is loose and that mainly is keeping the head from falling off when I move it. I have tightened it a couple of times and saw no appreciable difference in cut quality. I just be sure the two clamp bolts on the top of the Y axis that clamp it are good and tight.

    One more thought is my mill gear noise quiets down a bit as the Y travel nears its travel limit to the front of the machine. My guess would be the gear mesh opens up a bit due to less wear in that area essentially lifting the Y a bit or more likely there is just less wear in that area of the long gear resulting in quieter running.

    Make some chips and have fun. My first projects were T nuts and vise clamps as well. It's a great first project but be sure the clamps look nice since you will see them every time you use the mill. Lol

    Shawn

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  8. #1027
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    I found that most of the bolts of the backing plates on the saddle where loose or not very tight. I tightened them up and also other parts and now it sounds better. I've only made cuts in the X direction so far. It sounds better now but the vertical spindle got hot, it did not do that last night. I believe I adjusted the top lock nuts too tightly, it's a tight rope walk it feels like to adjust those.

    Took some video of the milling
    YouTube




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    Now that you have tightened the vertical plate gibs, you might wish to revisit the "Z" axis nut alignment as Bruce described.
    Spindles need to have some end play if you are talking about the thrust adjustment.("nut"?)
    Needs about .0002" of end float when at room temp.
    No preload here. Plate bearings won't tolerate running under forced tension. (preload)

    Need a real milling vise! That vise can't apply enough force to the work., lacks enough mass to dampen the cutting vibrations...Its designed for light use (grinding or EDM work)
    Need some compressible material (note paper) between the moving vise jaw and the material unless you are using precision stock that's flat and straight, otherwise your nice toolmakers vise could now have sprung jaws.

    Glad to see you are up and running.
    Cheers Ross

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    Well the vise is what I got for now. Got it on the recommendation of Stefan Gotteswinter who has run one for many years in his mill. So I think it will work for the moment. Got it because of funding issues. Good idea with the paper, I've so far used stock precise enough though.

    There is someone who says he is willing to pay me a vise if I do some simple work for him, some aluminum adapter plate he wants for his emco lathe to mount a milling attachment. No idea what kinda vise it is though.

    I was referring to the lock nuts that hold the ring gear assembly in place in the vertical head. A bit difficult to adjust, when you try and lock it down the lower nut moves too. I believe singer replaced this with a locking nut like what is used on the gear box shaft.

    I'll redo the procedure on the bottom shaft now. I wonder if I should remove the vertical spindle and double check the end play. For peace of mind.


    I am also considering what tools I need to acquire. I already have a basic set of carbide end mills and an ER-32 collet holder and collets.

    I think a face mill ranks highly, though what sort and at an affordable price is a tricky combination. I have also thought about a fly cutter, but I have some memory of them being bad for spindle bearings.

    Definitely a set of parallels...

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    Dennis, without the additional clamps the long reach vertical head is also less rigid than when these are in place and clamped.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    I do have suitable stock to make a new front clamp. I also realize I sohuld acquire a 40 taper to B16 fitting so I can fit a drill chuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 65AMC View Post
    ...since there is nothing in the front to mount one on mine. In fact now I keep the rear one on but it is loose and that mainly is keeping the head from falling off when I move it. I have tightened it a couple of times and saw no appreciable difference in cut quality. I just be sure the two clamp bolts on the top of the Y axis that clamp it are good and tight....
    Really Shawn? The interfacing plate (I hope the name is suitable) doesn't have two female M10 threads bottom front??? This is really strange...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Don't think a fly cutter is an issue with the needle bearing Deckel spindles, providing you use them with reasonable depths of cut,and diameter.
    Been running fly cutters for years on both my FP-NC's and the manual FP2, FP3....no ill effects that i can detect.
    All mine are shop built, varying in size. Prefer to use insert tools (lathe) for the cutting element. On large sizes i relieve around the tool and put extra weight (bolt_ opposite to help balance.
    Would post some examples, but just now i am at home in virus lock down (state wide in California) and my fly cutters are at work.

    Check your gib adjustments on all axis.
    On my manual machines i have a Jackobs "ball bearing" drill chuck fitted with a shortened 3/4" straight shank.
    I use a direct 3/4" collet to hold that shank. Works fine, no need to be more accurate as its a drill chuck, and mounting this way saves valuable head room, which is needed for lots of drilling operations.

    Don't go over on the face mill for size. For an FP2 would stay at or below 3" dia. 3 or 4 inserts are better than more if the setup is less rigid.

    Don't need everything top start out! Acquire tooling if needed for a specific task. End mills followed by a light fly cut will do just as well as a face mill, will just take a bit longer...usually
    time is something home shop workers have above cash for tooling.

    Carbide end mills are great. need to feed then higher than HSS so as not to rub the edges. Don't use coolant unless you can flood the tool and keep it always in the stream. Intermittent coolant will kill carbide.

    Have fun!
    Cheers Ross

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    Last night I went over the spindle and lock nuts. I verified the play on the vertical spindle and as well as I can see it was still 6 microns or 0.00023" so that seems in the right ballpark. I then used a .01mm shim when I tightened the lock nuts that hold the ring gear in place (horizontal one) and pulled it free later. It was stuck good but it left a little less than .01mm play which I believe is OK, better than preload.

    I also redid the adjustment of the Z-axis nut and now it moves a lot smoother. Setting the gib on the Z-axis is a bit difficult because down it seems to move easily regardless of adjustement, but up is always heavy. Still I think it moves fine now and I ran the machine last night and the spindle did not develop heat like it did the day before.

    I've been looking at smaller face mills. Though it's good to know I don't need to be so phobic about flycutters. Building one of those could be a good use for this surplus 40 taper tool I got (the frankenstein face mill I have never used). It came with the machine but does not belong to it, ther is no drawbar tap. I will need to make that. But it's a good thing to know this thing wasn't used on my machine...



    Cut it off and make some kind attachement for a flycutter, press fit maybe.

    Edit:
    Looking at face mills on ebay too, nothing too large, I think 70-80mm max, here is a 63mm one, only three inserts, but seems to be a good price and generic inserts.

    WP-Eckfraser 90deg O 63mm 220.17-0063 Seco NEU 2132 | eBay

    Edit 2:
    I also have a boring head, came with the machine, does not belong to it (no drawbar tap). I've seen some use boring heads as fly cutters.

    Last edited by DennisCA; 03-27-2020 at 01:56 AM.

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    That tool might win "ugliest' cutter.....Scary!
    Cut it off and leave most of the shank. Chuck it up and neck down the end of the shank and thread.
    Turn a disc with a center bore that has a good fit on the shank,make the disc tall enough to be longer than the shank and thread.
    Counter bore the top of the disc to allow clearance for a nut that fits the thread.
    Fashion a key to prevent the disc from rotating.. Perhaps a dowel in the face of the disc and a receiving hole in the holder flange....
    slot the disc the disc,,,,cut so that the slots leading edge is on center in the direction of rotation (right hand) and perpendicular to the rotation axis
    Cross drill and tap to intersect the slot...Cut the slot so that it slopes down toward the center from the disc edge.

    Sort of a home made shell mill holder.

    Cheers Ross

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    regarding the indexable holders for home shop use, these seem to work quite well, they definitely need careful deburring of the insert pockets before you fit the inserts, but once that's done, they work quite well, and there are plenty of APMT 1604 insert options around, even polished ones for non-ferrous, cheap ones they won't tolerate high speeds, but otherwise they are ok

    the 5 pocket one is APMT1103 fitted with PCD inserts

    20200327_092636.jpg

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    Hi Dennis,

    since we do have the same exact machine, here is my feedback.

    I have several facemills, from 16mm inserted end mill up to 160 mm monsters (that I haven't ever used).
    What I use 90% of the times is this one:

    GARANT Indexable face mill 45deg 63/5 mm

    Similar face mills can be found on ebay for next to nothing. They have a positive geometry that helps a lot (I had this since the ALG100 years) with underpowered machines (FP2 is no monster).
    I don't have pics ATM but trust me in that is leaves a mirror like finish on whatever I have put below it. Polished inserts for non ferrous materials and steel-designated inserts for steel, you can't go wrong with it.

    On the other hand, face mills with triangular inserts have never worked nicely for me.

    Br,
    Thanos

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    Thanos, that looks similar to this, but I am not finding informaiton on the type of insert it uses. Seems to be an older wedge style rather than screws. I remember Stefan Gotteswinter having a similar face mill and saying he preferred the wedge style for some reason. As you might notice, I reference him a lot for things.

    WP - Planfraser O 50 R220.43-0050-07W Seco 1943 | eBay

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    The one I suggested also doesn't use screwed-on inserts, they are wedged onto the carbide shim with that (left handed) flat torx head screw.

    To my understanding, quality tools don't rest the inserts on bare steel, they use that carbide shim to do this. I guess that'll save the holder in case of a mishap, not sure if they serve other purposes as well.

    Given all that, like I do most of the times, I'd choose a second hand quality tool in decent condition over a very cheap new one.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    the "problem" with brandnamed used (older) tools is that they often use slighty non-standard shaped inserts, which might simply not be available any more new

    if I remember correctly, that is why Stefan chose one of face mills he showed in one of his vids - it used iso standard inserts, that were not proprietary, it had nothing to do with the way they were held in place


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