Deckel FP2 acquired (Preliminary) - Page 6
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 6 of 43 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 856
  1. #101
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    136

    Default

    I have the machine in my possession, but the gib is stuck incredibly hard.

    Looking at ballens post earlier of the gib in question I think anyway the least risky solution is to mill off the very end of the gib and drill and tap the end, fit a new steel plate and file it to fit. All the piece needs to do is retain the screw.

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I have the machine in my possession, but the gib is stuck incredibly hard.
    Beg, borrow, or make the functional equivalent of a "Thor" copper faced hammer, or a Brass hammer.

    "Shock" the wotever it is in loose and slide the Mike Foxtrot gib out so you can see what you have. This is not the time for slow pushes, hydraulics, nor a dead-blow hammer.

    It needs a sharpish energy input spike to get this sort of s**t to quit wasting your time. "Apex predator" means exactly that.

    As with aircraft, machine tools make excellent servants, but DAMNED poor masters.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    136

    Default

    Finally, success with getting this part off. Despite drilling out the pin it was still stuck, 4 jaw trick didn't work this time, I tried a bunch of other ideas but eventually I cut this "puller" from a piece of 12mm steel on the bandsaw and made some holes and threaded it. I was getting annoyed at this point in time and did not care about pretty, so I just got some drill bits of the right size and put them in a bit through the holes, so they contacted the part but not the shaft, then I applied force and it let go.



    I wonder if I need to make a tool for every part of the disassembly.

  4. Likes HomerOz liked this post
  5. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,565
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1560
    Likes (Received)
    869

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I wonder if I need to make a tool for every part of the disassembly.
    No, only for the parts of disassembly which should take less than one minute .

    Seriously, yes you will probably have to make two or three more such specialised bits. Just be patient, at some point the machine will realise that you intend it no harm and will begin to cooperate.

    Normally I agree with Bill (Thermite) and he does have a lot of experience. But in this case I think that a "big shock" applied to the end of the gib may not work, because the gib may be stuck in the middle. So as the shock wave travels down the metal the shock wave will (a) be dispersed and (b) be dissipated. Both of these reduce its effectiveness. Plus I think there is a big danger of mushrooming the gib. So in your shoes I would finish removing the lead screw, lead screw nut, end covers and any other hardware that is in the way, and then make three parts:

    12-20mm thick small Aluminum plate, 14mm hole, fit over hole near the lead screw nut. Steel is also OK.

    12-20mm thick large Aluminum plate, 14mm hole, fits over the operator end of the vertical table. Steel is also OK.

    20mm square steel piece, long enough to go from the gib to the operator side aluminum plate with about the last 10mm "trimmed" to be a little bit narrower than the gib in both dimensions.

    Fit long 14mm threaded rod, grease nut, fit 20x20mm bar into place and start turning the M14 nut. If the aluminum plates are a snug fit, the various bits of cast iron will all be in compression and I think this is unlikely to do damage. Hopefully it will break the gib free, by applying forces much larger than you get via the lead screw and handwheel. (I just checked, an M14 x 2mm bolt provides an axial force of 88,000 Newtons, which is around 9 metric tons.)

    Be patient, plan, celebrate each small success, like getting off the handwheel and hardware.

    I've been through this also. Here's what my machine looked like when I first saw it:



    and here's a recent picture of it doing some useful work (adding new oil passages to the cross slide of my cylindrical grinder):


  6. Likes AlfaGTA, Milacron, HomerOz, thanvg liked this post
  7. #105
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Normally I agree with Bill (Thermite) and he does have a lot of experience. But in this case I think that a "big shock" applied to the end of the gib may not work, because the gib may be stuck in the middle.
    Read that again because what you went on to discuss was in full contradiction to what I suggested.

    No "big" shock is involved, it is a SHARP one. Usually more than one, but not always.

    One recent use was to unstick a rusted in-place Monarch lathe TS barrel. Among the things that worked? The light but sharp, and persistent taps from a power impact tool.

    And it is not meant to be applied to the gib at all. One can "upset" it. As in expand, not as-in annoy.

    It is applied to the "housing" the gib - but NOT ONLY is held in.

    Needless to say, and I SHOULD have, it is wise to apply it in the de-wedging direction, not the tighter wedging direction.

    Even so, it has a seriously good track-record, all manner of "stuck stuff". The physics and metallurgy already covered on PM.

    Rust, for example, expending to as much as fourteen times the volume as it occupied as NON Oxidized metal - or attempting to do - is an open-cell sponge, and never as strong as the parent metal. Shock fractures that structure and lets the particles park in amongst themselves to occupy less space again and relax the binding pressure. A heavy slow push merely wedges it in compression still not at the point of yield. That can build and distribute enough force - and HAS DONE - to break more castings than the sharp taps have done.

    Or he COULD, of course, await rising sea levels to corrode the entire machine into Iron ions staining a Coral reef a million years in future.

    At which point it doesn't make any more difference that it had already by yesterday afternoon.

    Eg: PFU. Pretty F****g Useless as far as a machine-tool goes.

    Soil banks do not pay hoarders who take milling machines out of productive service as if they were wheat fields. Fix it or pass it on to someone who will do.

  8. #106
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    136

    Default

    Based on my experience, what worked for me to start getting something stuck loose (pressing out the spindle in my lathe for a checkup and cleaning when I got it) was to put it under strain and then give it a tap. Both methods were tried first on their own but did not yield any results.

    I do not believe the gib is rusted, the machine seems to be quite spared from rust under the layer of solidified oily gunk.

    I have some lead, I should cast some into a lead hammer perhaps. Soft faced so it should not marr or mushroom surfaces.

  9. #107
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Based on my experience, what worked for me to start getting something stuck loose (pressing out the spindle in my lathe for a checkup and cleaning when I got it) was to put it under strain and then give it a tap. Both methods were tried first on their own but did not yield any results.

    I do not believe the gib is rusted, the machine seems to be quite spared from rust under the layer of solidified oily gunk.

    I have some lead, I should cast some into a lead hammer perhaps. Soft faced so it should not marr or mushroom surfaces.
    Wrong kind of hammer. Lead is a "dead blow". That slow but inexorable push. Just not as 'slow" as a press!

    To propagate the "spike" that does the work, a steel hammer would do, but damage the casting.
    Use of a brass or copper faced hammer is the "no mar" compromise. I picked up the first "Thor" whilst seconded to London and rebuilding a BMW 6 to keep out of the pubs! Well. Sometimes.

    The rawhide face is also very useful:

    Copper Hide - Hammers

  10. #108
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,565
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1560
    Likes (Received)
    869

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Read that again because what you went on to discuss was in full contradiction to what I suggested. No "big" shock is involved, it is a SHARP one.
    Apologies, while I did read your post several times, I often have trouble understanding what you have written. In this case you wrote "shock whatever it is loose (sic)" but were not specific about where to hit. Did you mean for the OP to strike the end of the vertical table?

    If so, my point holds: a sharp shock (meaning applied over a short time, a fraction of a millisecond) will be dispersed and dissipated as it propagates through the cast iron, which has excellent damping characteristics. By the time the resulting pressure/compression wave reaches the area of the gib, it will longer be "sharp". The pressure wave will be dispersed both in time and in distance, without the sharp profile. (If you don't believe me, attach an egg to the far side of the vertical table with some super glue or duct tape, and hit the near side of the vertical table with a big hammer. The egg won't crack.)

    Even if it were made of material that did not damp and dissipate so effectively, I believe that hitting the vertical table (mass ~100kg) which is in intimate contact with a larger (~700kg) mass with a hammer that weighs (say) 2 kg will be ineffective. This is an elastic collision between a small mass and a large one. It will transfer momentum to the vertical table but very little energy. If you could hit the vertical table square on with a 2000kg mass it would be a very different story!
    Last edited by ballen; 11-13-2018 at 10:46 PM.

  11. #109
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Apologies, while I did read your post several times, I often have trouble understanding what you have written. In this case you wrote "shock whatever it is loose (sic)" but were not specific about where to hit. My point holds: a sharp shock (meaning applied over a short time, a fraction of a millisecond) will be dispersed and dissipated as it propagates through the cast iron, which has excellent damping characteristics. By the time it reaches the area of the gib, it will longer be "sharp".

    Even were the table made of material that did not damp and dissipate so effectively, I believe that hitting the vertical table (mass ~100kg) with a hammer that weighs (say) 2 kg will be ineffective. This is an elastic collision between a small mass and a large one. It will transfer momentum to the vertical table but very little energy. If you could hit the vertical table square on with a 200kg mass it would be a very different story!
    The physics is yours to pursue if you care to do.

    This is farm-boy and mechanic machinery experience. Cast Iron is not limited to old Deckel mills. Or my Burke #4 as to freeing a solidified overarm for example.

    To me, it is simply what works best and most often. Other work usually calls, so I JFDI rather than spend a week agonizing over trivia.

    If the OP doesn't want to fix it, just part it out.

    Oh.. wait.. one cannot ... it is stucking f**k!!!!


  12. #110
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    136

    Default

    I believe we can all safely say the OP (me) wants to fix the machine. We're only investigating the best way to do it, being careful and methodical, debating the different options.

    Time is not of the essence, my day job is sitting in an office and no income is lost from this taking longer.

    I will look around and see what hammers are available to me next I go into the city, if nothing else I have a heavy iron mallet I suppose I could TIG braze a copper face onto.

    I do believe a combination of both pressure and shock is what will do it...

  13. #111
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I do believe a combination of both pressure and shock is what will do it...
    That has often proven tha case, but I offer tension and shock as having worked even better. This because it can have spring and bounce introduced more easily.

    An example, using wood:

    - Two members are arranged as an "A" frame. The open ends bear against the sides of the base of the machine. The apex is biased to align with centerline of the table that is to be "unstuck", A third assymetrical member placed to bear against the column is used to elevate the "A" to align with the centerline of the"load" in elevation. We will not be exerting a great deal of force, here.

    The goal is to be able to apply a pull about equal to what one average person could lift, but to be able to sustain that amount of tension while we do other things.

    From the apex of our "reasonably stable" if somewhat imperfect field-expedient tripod - on its side, and pointed in the desired direction of travel, we rig a rope, nylon or one of the "poly" tribe that are notorious for their stretch and "springiness".

    Either by means of "the usual suspects" as to tensioning ropes, butterfly knot, series of half-hitches, twisting a loop with a stick, we draw tension on the table. You'll have an innate human "feel" for this, even if a banker or tax assessor. It's all just built-in. because we walk and climb, sit and stand, rather than float on the tide to move about, and our brains calculate the balance of tensions all our waking hours.

    The table now has tension drawn on it. Unlike a bottle jack arranged to "push" - then drop on your feet when the table moves, this rig will allow us to apply OTHER sources of force in EITHER direction and to introduce changes in off-axis pitch and yaw. It won't "fight us" as the rigid in compressive load ram would be doing.

    Introduce sharp, "spikey" little excursions in pitch and yaw, various "axes" as well as both directs, primary axis of travel not neglected, but "not only", is exactly what we do NEXT.

    Beat on the bitch at the corners, IOW.

    Trying to break the grip of whatever IS "gripping" by applying hammer blows at alternating corners - BOTH ends - to shake the binding corrosion, varnish, or wedged metal loose of its grip.

    Gross motion MOVEMENT can come later. Or now and then it just surrenders and DONE.

    The hammers, brass, copper, and enough more as to class as a fetish collector are just "here". Dozens of types. That need not become a new OCD collection for YOU.

    The tensioner means you have both hands free, so any hammer in one hand, a "buffer" to interpose between casting and hammer, be that polywood, hardwood, aluminium, brass, or a tough chunk of toasted kevlar armour or carbon fiber left over from the desert course at breakfast and you are in business.

    Think on it. Consult with any countryman who has had to keep "stuff" freed-up and functional whilst timbering in your usual "tropical" winters and see if he can improve on it.

    It isn't really a machinist's exclusive patent. Folk who have dog or reindeer sled runners to unstick from the ice have been doing similar things for a very long time already.

    I'd actually have tried the asymmetrical impact in the first two minutes, probably never needed to get to the "A" frame contraption.

    And you may not have to, either.

    But that's just the usual "old age and treachery" at work.. cheat and whack the damned thing a few good ones.. as the eye just somehow already knows where best to hit.

    As yours well may.

    Humans have tons of senses and calculators we don't pay much attention to until we need to hit supper with a spear whilst it is running ELSE starve. Or just run through the woods or up or down a staircase whist carrying a load ELSE take a burst of 9 mm MP40 in the back. Fight, flight, or FIX, IOW.

    Cry "Havoc" and let your own innate dogs of war off the leash to git 'er done. They know more than you are giving them credit for, already.


  14. #112
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Country
    GREECE
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    128
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    These machines are extremely robust. If the spindle bearings are OK and the gears are not stripped, almost everything else can be fixed.

    Yes, taper pins can be awful to remove. The worst ones need to be drilled out. The good news is that suitable reamers (1:50 taper ratio) and new taper pins are inexpensive and easy to obtain.

    Be patient. Everything you are seeing is repairable. You got the machine at a good price because the previous owner didn't have the stamina or time to deal with it.
    If I may, my 2 cents on this, and only because it might assist in the OP's state of mind, planning and/or decisions on this new machine:

    From my point I'd prefer a machine with sound geometry and unworn ways, even if the spindles were a mess, over a worn machine with nice spindles. From personal quotations and Bruce's reports, Franz Singer treatment on the spindles is priced very very reasonably and, (from Bruce's reports again) the results are exceptional. So, with, not so much money and, I guess, some weeks of delay, you can end up with perfect spindles! Thank god for the FP2 design with removable vertical and horizontal quills. Just pack nicely, wait a bit, pay some money, get perfect spindles back.

    On the other hand, restoring the geometry or the wear on a machine with worn ways and leadscrews is way more expensive and that is only for the parts that you can pay for. Rest of the work must be done by the owner and this requires tools, experience and, most of all, time. So, if you can spare more Euros than days (and that's labor days plus days without a milling machine) then I strongly believe you're better off with a solid XYZ than with solid spindles.

    BR,
    Thanos

  15. #113
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I strongly believe you're better off with a solid XYZ than with solid spindles.
    I cannot agree more, but have to point out that finding any such creature that has trashed spindle bearings but near zero way wear is a seriously unlikely combination.


  16. Likes Jersey John liked this post
  17. #114
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Country
    GREECE
    Posts
    464
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    128
    Likes (Received)
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I cannot agree more, but have to point out that finding any such creature that has trashed spindle bearings but near zero way wear is a seriously unlikely combination.

    I am afraid you're right....
    (I'll still keep an eye though for the near new 500 mm X FP2 that is being on sale as scrap because it got the quills off an L machine that had an accident with spindle-only-corrosive coolant so they had to swap quills because it's the L that suited their work. I am sure there is one out there waiting for me...:P)

  18. #115
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I am afraid you're right....
    (I'll still keep an eye though for the near new 500 mm X FP2 that is being on sale as scrap because it got the quills off an L machine that had an accident with spindle-only-corrosive coolant so they had to swap quills because it's the L that suited their work. I am sure there is one out there waiting for me...:P)
    Took a while, and more than a few false-hopes, at least one of them gawdawful COSTLY, but yes. It can be worth the search and "keeping an eye out" after all.

    We just celebrated our 28th wedding anniversary. Sadly, the only "old iron" that has survived is now in her Golf club bags, two continents. A man has to accept his limitations!


  19. #116
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,940
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1764
    Likes (Received)
    2302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I cannot agree more, but have to point out that finding any such creature that has trashed spindle bearings but near zero way wear is a seriously unlikely combination.

    Not so fast big fella........Talking Deckel here....Remember that there are no replaceable races , either inner or outer in those spindles...having a machine with a questionable spindle (Deckel) can mean having to replace
    both the quill and spindle as an assembly should things be damaged inside...its a crap shoot and could be very costly and require precision fitting of the new quill to the original housings in addition to the parts cost ($$$$$$$$)...In short bad spindles can be a total crap shoot.


    Regular shop hands have been reworking the sliding surfaces of machines since metal was first cut....Hand scraping and geometric testing is not rocket science and an acceptable refurbishment of a machine's
    slides can be accomplished by even relatively inexperienced hands given direction and patience for a reasonable cost....Precision regrinding or lapping of the quill fit on a machine might well be another matter requiring both
    tooling and skill beyond novice level........

    Cheers Ross

  20. Likes ballen liked this post
  21. #117
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    25,662
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    8087

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Not so fast big fella........Talking Deckel here....Remember that there are no replaceable races , either inner or outer in those spindles...having a machine with a questionable spindle (Deckel) can mean having to replace
    both the quill and spindle as an assembly should things be damaged inside...its a crap shoot and could be very costly and require precision fitting of the new quill to the original housings in addition to the parts cost ($$$$$$$$)...In short bad spindles can be a total crap shoot.
    Yah but..

    - WHEN you cannot find a Deckel in the condition you WISH you could find one in.

    - OR you cannot afford to PUT a worn Deckel into the condition you WANT it in.

    You just go and use another mill.
    Last edited by thermite; 11-13-2018 at 04:43 PM.

  22. #118
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    GERMANY
    Posts
    2,565
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1560
    Likes (Received)
    869

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    From personal quotations and Bruce's reports, Franz Singer treatment on the spindles is priced very very reasonably and, (from Bruce's reports again) the results are exceptional. So, with, not so much money and, I guess, some weeks of delay, you can end up with perfect spindles! Thank god for the FP2 design with removable vertical and horizontal quills. Just pack nicely, wait a bit, pay some money, get perfect spindles back.
    This depends upon the condition. What you write above is correct if all that is needed is some cleaning, lubrication, adjustment, and a touch-up grind to the taper. On the other hand if the bearing raceways (integral to the spindle) are damaged or worn, then this can not be easily fixed and so the cost goes up a lot.
    Last edited by ballen; 11-13-2018 at 10:43 PM.

  23. Likes AlfaGTA liked this post
  24. #119
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Country
    FINLAND
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    70
    Likes (Received)
    136

    Default

    Not much done today, some cleaning and scrubbing of parts. I mostly shopped today, I found this 2nd hand out of chance, it will come in handy in the future, a 1.6 ton hoist so I can lift the machine of the pallet later:




  25. #120
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Benicia California USA
    Posts
    7,940
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1764
    Likes (Received)
    2302

    Default

    Bill:
    Thinking about posting a response to your post, but honestly i got lost in it all .
    Just a simple guy here who works with his hands.....Decoding your posts, even if, just obscures the point ....Or maybe that is the point...
    Cheers Ross

  26. Likes rklopp, 1potatoe liked this post

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •