Deckel FP2 Aktiv maintenance and repair
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  1. #1
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    Default Deckel FP2 Aktiv maintenance and repair

    Hi All,

    Iím starting this thread as a continuation of my how to ship and FP2 questions threads.
    Plan is to give some details and pictures for general interest and to possibly help someone else in the future. Along with a place for me to ask for some help myself!

    So a general situation to date. I contacted a dealer in South Africa 7 and a half months ago about a 1981 Deckel FP2 aktiv he had for sale, it was cheap.... with reason. The dealer was upfront with some problems. Very noisy gear train, feed drive trips some times, only one speed on the main motor a Swiss cheese table and allot of backlash on the Y axis. Iím sure I will add to that list as time goes on. The other issue being that it is in South Africa and Iím in New Zealand. Any way, a bit of haggling went on and in the end I purchased her for a little under 3k euro. What I hope turns out to be a good deal. Unfortunately shipping cost about the same again.

    So, yesterday she arrived! I did ask for a substantial strong box, at around 350kg I think they followed through!

    A quick clean up and poke around, first impression is very good. It has been my experience that things often look better in a picture than real life, this machine is actually the opposite for me.

    I have had a bit of a look at the Y backlash ( it was a turn and a half on the hand wheel) and found the thrust washer backing plate bolts all very lose. I did them up till they stopped then undid 1/4 of a turn to not damage the thrust bearing. Backlash is now down to 0.2mm on the hand wheel. Obviously with some careful adjustments I will be able to lower this some more. What would be a normal amount? The thrust bearing was packed with dark smelly grease, I assume that this is not correct? It should be oiled? I donít know why someone was playing around in here. The lock nuts that hold the screw have also been undone and left. The screw has a few scratches on the top of the threads. This will need further investigation.


    Now for something that has me a bit puzzled. The vertical head slides on top of the Y axis, it has a nice chain drive to move it. When I first tried this I could only get about 30cm of movement before it came to a hard stop in both directions. Some fiddling with the middle lock and the head now slides a few more cm back. I have pulled the bolts out of all 3 locks, not much to see except that someone has been in there recently. The front lock is currently past the end of the slide so is not a problem, the back lock is on a smooth/ simple section of dovetail so shouldnít be causing any problem. The middle lock is a bit unknown, it dose wiggle a little even when the pressure is kept on the chain drive against the stop, so this shouldnít be the problem. Spindles turn fine so I donít think it is a gear mesh problem.... Anyone have any thoughts on this? Iím a little bit stumped. Iím missing about 40cm travel back and about 5 cm front.

    Sorry for the long post.

    Regards,

    BB9b63982b-c087-40f6-a930-22532b748c43.jpg27fbb8c4-686e-4d57-b5af-b7862aeeaa79.jpgad0a0e6d-7d40-4b01-8d9f-1225759ecb3a.jpg

  2. #2
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    BB
    I can try and check tomorrow but I remember having a similar problem with my FP3NC when I got it. As I remember it was a combination of the middle lock and a timing issue with the chain itself. Keep in mind that this is a different machine and I have no experience with your machine. Looking at mine might jog my memory of the problem.
    There is a cover over the chain I would take that off. There might be something obvious there. I think there were two drive pins / teeth that the chain had to engage. At some point the sprocket has to clear one of them with a missing tooth in the sprocket?

    Andy

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    One other thing that I just thought of. The middle lock kind of has a sweet spot in the middle to work right. Not to tight and not to loss to clear for movement.

    Andy

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    Hi Andy,

    Thanks for the reply. You nailed it, haven’t fully checked it out but removed the back chain pin and the head goes back further. I guess the chain/sprockets are out of sync with the pins. I will pull the cover later today for a full inspection.
    Thanks allot for your help.

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    Andy is correct.
    The movement chain engages two teeth that are stationary on the Y slide,
    The teeth are sort of shaped like a sprocket tooth with the top flattened.
    There are missing teeth (one on each sprocket) on the chain drive sprockets....

    The overall travel is longer than the length of the chain, so the sprocket must pass over one of the fixed teeth (one at each end of travel) .
    if the sprockets are not timed correctly, the fixed tooth will foul the sprocket......
    Can happen at either end of travel, or both if its wrong.

    As to clamping the "Y" slide to the vertical head casting....There are three clamp bolts on the operators side. (10mm Allen key)
    For normal running in vertical, the front and rear clamps are used (only)
    Leave the one in the center loose...way loose.
    That center clamp is used when you mount an accessory like the shaping head or the precision boring head....
    The center and rear clamp are used to secure the upper casting when its pushed to the rear for horizontal work....

    If the upper support for the vertical head is at the rear, and you wish to move it forward to run vertical, if the center clamp is not loose, the upper casting will run into the clamp and prevent it from going forward.

    Be aware that there is a factory cover (plastic) that is used to block off the top of the "Y" slide when running horizontal....Has dovetails and it slips into the slide dovetails.
    Needed to keep chips and swarf out of the upper gears.

    Also there is a mod for providing oil to the upper drive gears of that machine, might already have been done...If there is a "Zerk" style oil fitting on top of the "Y" vertical head casting just behind the protractor that allows swiveling
    the vertical head, then your machine has been modified. If not i believe its a good idea.....

    Here are some photos....The first shown the drain back drilling needed (remove the vertical head and protractor/T-slot) Drill through the inner wall of the casting through the existing bolt hole.



    Her is the location of the oil Zerk.....



    Hole is drilled through and spot faced...



    Cheers Ross

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    Hi

    Thanks guys for the info on the chain drive, problem fixed now and works perfectly. I removed all 3 dovetail clamps, gave them a good cleaning and replaced. Everything works nicely now.

    Hi Ross,
    Thanks for the info. If/when I replace the head gears then I will absolutely do the oil mod, not so keen on pulling it all apart if not. To be decided when I actually get it under power.
    Unfortunately I don’t have the plastic cover, I see Franz has them for sale for quite a price.(300 euro from memory) I will most likely make my own.

    So today while sorting out the chain issues I also cleaned the top of the Y axis casting. Allot of dark sludge had settled on horizontal surfaces. This includes the oil wicks for the Y axis slideways. Dose anyone know if it is possible to replace the wicks from the top? It is tight access. Not super keen on pulling off the whole Y to do it.
    The other item of interest was some grease...... it was on the castings near the gears, nowhere else. No oil/grease nipples in that area. I guess someone manually put grease on the gears.

    Checked the backlash on the X axis. Around 0.1mm using just the dial with axis locked, 0.08mm using a dti. Seems unusually good given the age?

    Is it possible to pull the Y axis screw straight out the back without problems? I would like to have a quick look at it given the other things going on in that area. Just wondering if the nut or something else might drop preventing the reinsertion of the screw.

    Thanks.

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    I think you can replace the "Y" oil wicks from the top...Not done that on your vintage machine,have done so on a 1st gen FP2.
    I used un-waxed candle wicking (hobby store) Double the wick by folding it to make a "U" bend at one end...(may need 4 strands and 2 bends depending on the size of the wicking)
    Use a pusher (i used the small nozzle extension off a spray can) to push the "U" bend down into the drilling...Push it down carefully till it touches the way surface, don't over pack the wicking,

    As to the screw....nothing to loose there, everything is captive...should unscrew out the rear once you free it from the bracket. Can't remember on yours, but think the end of the screw is threaded with a retaining ring
    nut. If you run the slide to the rear, remove the ring nut, then you can wind the screw forward and out of the bracket...Then you can remove the bracket and all will be clear to unscrew the screw out the rear....

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for that. I will give the wick replacement a go.
    Looking at the Y screw, think I can just undo the 3 bolts on the back and crank it right out.
    c7c81f02-13f7-4b37-8786-31a6c645d1cd.jpg
    The 2 nuts on the back of the screw were like that when I got the machine, tight against each other but not to the bracket.
    74b6fa94-8192-4e4a-a37e-241df72e66ca.jpg

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    Hi All,

    Well, not a great day. I did get the machine mounted on its feet, much better than the blocks of wood it has been on.
    Then on to draining the oil from the gear box and Z screw. The oil in the main gear box is very thick, dark and smelly, something like a heavy gear oil. There was allot of dark sediment and black soft lumps. Forward drain was actually blocked by this sediment and needed some help to start flowing. Both drains also had a small amount of bronze glitter, more in the front one. No visible steel particles. I have saved the oil and will filter it tomorrow to see what else is in it. After the initial rush the oil was relatively clean.
    On to the Z. The first litre of fluid was just black water, the next litre was the same heavy oil as the main gearbox. Not good.
    Any suggestions on how to proceed? I have a portable coolant pump, it is new/clean. I was thinking about fitting it with a filter and circulating some cleaning fluid through the gearbox. Maybe kerosene or diesel? I was able to see one of the gears through the filler plug, it looked like new. Is there any easy way to see more of the gearbox? Or do you have to pull off the gear selector?
    The lumps in the oil look to be and smell like bacteria. They shouldn’t have caused any problems apart from possibly increasing the acidity of the oil a little.
    So not great discoveries but I guess to be expected with a machine that has been around for 40 years.

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    I think you're in to take the gear selector off the machine.

    That's the only way you'll have a good insight into what's going on in there...

    Good news is it's not that much work !

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    Hi TNB,

    Thanks for the confirmation. I have been dreaming up was of avoiding it but I think you are correct, it is the only way to be sure of what is going on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation. I have been dreaming up was of avoiding it but I think you are correct, it is the only way to be sure of what is going on.
    Alternatively put petroleum in the gearboxes, run it for a few minutes, drain it, and fill with fresh oil. If it then works well and isn't noisy, a more detailed investigation could wait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Alternatively put petroleum in the gearboxes, run it for a few minutes, drain it, and fill with fresh oil. If it then works well and isn't noisy, a more detailed investigation could wait.

    I would repeat that a few times till you drain pretty clean petroleum And just run it half a minute or so Wait some time Then another half a minute
    I would also overfill it Perhaps topp it off and have it sit for a while ??

    Peter

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    I am not a fan of sloshing machine sumps with solvent or kerosene.....
    Machine tool gearboxes in general rely on settlement to remove foreign substances from the machine.
    Varnish and the like tend to plate out where things are not moving.....generally this will not hurt the internal components.
    Using solvent and running the machine will stir up all the fines that were on the bottom of the sump. Once stirred up it will be run through bearings and bushings and gears....
    Getting run through close running components....not good
    Better to fill with fresh oil or the grade recommended, run the machine for some time...perhaps a month and drain and refill....The oil is less likely to stirr up anything
    that you really don't want run through all the rotating parts of the box.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi All,

    Well, after a bit of dithering I thought I would just have a look at the access to get in to the gearbox, just to see how difficult it would be. 10 minutes later it was open! Extremely easy. Hardest part was finding the hidden fastening for the plastic operators side panel. For anyone reading this in the future, it is on the non operating side behind the panel that holds the oil guns.
    Someone has been in the gearbox before me, one of the screws holding on the speed selector/aces hatch was a bit butchered. Although that was the only sign. Gears look perfect! Great. A bit of sludge in the bottom but nothing to much. Most of it must have come out with the oil.
    Unfortunately there is one issue, the bearing closest to the motor pulley is a big ball of rust. Funny enough it spins perfectly quiet and smooth. Obviously this has to be replaced. Any pointers on how best to go about this? It sort of looks from the parts book that I have that the bearing is mounted in a carrier as part of the flanged cover at the back?96d96c46-396e-4325-9938-aeba07efd4c4.jpg
    Can anyone comment on that? Is it possible to just pull this straight out the back? I can’t imagine it is going to be that easy. I have to remove the power feed drive shaft before I can check it out.
    So all in all quite happy that I decided to open the gearbox, if you are contemplating doing it on your machine, go for it. Super easy and the only way to catch things like this bearing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    Unfortunately there is one issue, the bearing closest to the motor pulley is a big ball of rust. Funny enough it spins perfectly quiet and smooth. Obviously this has to be replaced. Any pointers on how best to go about this? It sort of looks from the parts book that I have that the bearing is mounted in a carrier as part of the flanged cover at the back?
    Can anyone comment on that? Is it possible to just pull this straight out the back?
    If this is the same as an earlier FP2, the bearing on the main input pulley shaft can be removed from the back. You either need to disconnect the vertical shaft which provides power feed to the Y axis, or alternatively, to grind off a bit of the bearing retaining flange so that the flange will squeeze past that vertical power shaft. See these links

    Deckel FP2 OIL LEAK (The whole thread is useful, post 22 shows tools needed)

    Meine "Werkstattgeschichten" - Seite 9 - Zerspanungsbude

    Karl (CharlyDE) has done this recently and can probably give some tips. When I do this to my own machine, following Ross's advice I will use a 2RS bearing, remove the inner shield, and leave the outer one.

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    Hi Ballen,

    Thanks for the link to the other thread, it looks to be exactly the same. I will take off the power feed shaft, had a go at the taper pins yesterday but they are reluctant. I’m unable to get one of the plats screws undone the feed shaft is in the way. Boy the screws are tight!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    Hi Ballen,

    . Boy the screws are tight!
    Impact driver.........
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    When I do this to my own machine, following Ross's advice I will use a 2RS bearing, remove the inner shield, and leave the outer one.
    I was just checking the parts book I have for the MK3 machine, it actually specifies a 2RS bearing but from what I can see so far it is a standard fitted. Will know more when I actually get it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Impact driver.........
    Cheers Ross
    Yes your probably right, impact drivers and I have a difficult history. I now see them as a last resort. That’s pobably why I have so many issues with them as I have already destroyed the screws before.


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