Deckel FP2 Aktiv maintenance and repair - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Hi All,

    Success! Punched out one pin on the power feed shaft and drilled the second. Following Ross’s suggestion I went directly for the impact driver to remove the last screw holding the bearing retainer plate. Nice and easy.

    You can see in the pictures the amount of rust/oil/grease mix in and around the bearing. Quite nasty.

    Now for the puzzle, popped of one of the seals from the bearing, it only has a small amount of the rust mix inside, in fact it is quite good and spins nicely. No sign of rusting, pitting or anything else wrong. So much so that I wonder if the rust didn’t come from the bearing. When I received the machine the spindle handwheel at the back was missing and was replaced with a loosely fitted bolt/washer. This bolt normally sandwich’s the handwheel, drive pulley, coolant pump sprocket and the inside race of this bearing to a step on the shaft. All these items were loose on the shaft.
    The rust mix is spread all over the inside face of the main drive pulley and along the whole shaft outside of the gearbox. The shaft itself looks ok, no sign of pitting or rust in the surface. I do think that there has been some fretting occurring on the shaft.
    I think that I will re mount the pulley and sprocket with some loctite just to stop any movement.
    beee8ed6-852e-4907-a96a-029d41f774c1.jpg48f14c10-404f-4b04-8aec-8b0b7b012960.jpga98d8b4e-d2fd-4cf1-8199-a5e1d18f6572.jpga98d8b4e-d2fd-4cf1-8199-a5e1d18f6572.jpgb168e19f-228d-4df9-b363-baacbe7a6095.jpgb168e19f-228d-4df9-b363-baacbe7a6095.jpg435bde6d-e33f-419d-bd1e-d4f3ba566bb1.jpg

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  3. #22
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    Well I should have looked a bit harder before posting.

    Shaft is worn where the unrestrained items have been moving. The bearing may have been spinning on the shaft a little. There is a hardened washer between the bearing and the step in the shaft, it has deep groves worn in to it to match its contact points.

    The rust, I think this may have all been caused by the fretting. The bearing retainer plate is set up with a channel to catch oil that comes through the bearing and return it through a drilling in the main casting to gearbox, it would let the rust through. This setup seems to be for a non RS bearing so I think I should block it when doing the re installing.

    So any suggestions on how to proceed?

    The shaft has a reduced diameter, I will attempt to measure it and the matching parts.

    How big of a gap can loctite bearing retainer be expected to deal with? Is there something better?

    It seems a little strange that this whole stack of components is held together by a plastic handwheel.

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  5. #23
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    Rust color is actually the result of the fretting....Sorry for your troubles.
    Absolute solution: remove the shaft and send out to be hard chromed and ground back to original size....Slight undercut (with radius) at each end of the damaged area....no need to chrome more than needed.
    Make the undercut .010" -.020" undersized over original...need enough wall for this to be a good repair. Don't go crazy....thick = $$$$

    Could also go for metal spray...to build up the damaged area. This is a fine application for a spray metal build up as the part is cylindrical. Usually needs a prep of the surface like a roughing cut to give the surface texture.
    I would avoid any sort of welding build up .....long shaft, just too much possibility of warp age.

    Loctite bearing mount gets lots of support as a repair solution....I don't find it as such. Have seen Loctite used Lots of times as a repair solution on old car parts on shafts and bearing fits that are worn...when that structure is re-visited almost always the Loctite is no where to be found...its not a solution that i put much faith in,your results may vary.

    As to the plastic hand wheel.....should have a molded in steel inner hub that the retaining bolt bears against.....should not be a problem getting it tight enough to retain all the shaft components...

    Cheers Ross

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  7. #24
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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for chiming in. You are quite correct, caroming the shaft would be the best repair. Not to forget the pulley would need to be sleeved as well.

    I’m inclined to go with the loctite for now. I haven’t yet even put power to the machine and don’t know what else lies in store. So I think it would be a good idea to do a basic repair at the moment, mostly just to get it going and also to prevent any further damage. Then I can see what else needs to be done and get a solid plan together. I expect some other surprises.

    I’m going to take a step back for the rest of the weekend. But of time to contemplate.


    Forgot to add, I have had a bit of a go at measuring the shaft and bores, not happy with the bore measurements, will try again on Monday before posting them here. The shaft measured 24.98mm on a unworn section. The smallest bit I could find was under the pulley at 24.92mm.
    Last edited by Boat Brat; 05-23-2020 at 06:23 AM. Reason: Added some dimension

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  9. #25
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    Ross
    Did you have had loose bearings that were loctited in place regulary ??
    Never had that problem At least not if the wear is just a few 0,01mm Loctite for bearings works great Sometimes too great I have had more problems removing bearings So I would not use the strongest loctite on the OD A gap of 0.05mm should not be a problem in my experience One bearing on a shaft with loctite should make thermal expansion still possible

    For the pulley I replaced it with a taper lock pulley once Worked great

    Peter

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    Peter:
    Yes i have had issues with Loctite not retaining the part it was applied to.....
    Given that most were applications that one might count as severe or tough...Like holding an axle bearing in a loose housing ....rear wheel outboard upright on a formula car..done.more than one.
    Loose pinion bearings for a Hewland transaxle gearboxes....etc....just does not seem to work. Finally gave up on that solution for these problems....
    Perhaps the clearances were too large....don't have any numbers in my head just now.
    General lac of success with this style repair has prompted a shop wise saying....."Glue and magic potions are no substitute for a good mechanical fit".....
    The Loctite products are magic for retaining studs, an preventing threaded assemblies from becomming loose in service...i use them all the time. The retaining products not so much.
    Cheers Ross

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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    I haven’t yet even put power to the machine and don’t know what else lies in store. So I think it would be a good idea to do a basic repair at the moment, mostly just to get it going and also to prevent any further damage. Then I can see what else needs to be done and get a solid plan together.
    I think that's wise. You need to get the machine in use so that you can identify any other significant problems.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Peter:
    Yes i have had issues with Loctite not retaining the part it was applied to.....
    Given that most were applications that one might count as severe or tough...Like holding an axle bearing in a loose housing ....rear wheel outboard upright on a formula car..done.more than one.
    Loose pinion bearings for a Hewland transaxle gearboxes....etc....just does not seem to work. Finally gave up on that solution for these problems....
    Perhaps the clearances were too large....don't have any numbers in my head just now.
    General lac of success with this style repair has prompted a shop wise saying....."Glue and magic potions are no substitute for a good mechanical fit".....
    The Loctite products are magic for retaining studs, an preventing threaded assemblies from becomming loose in service...i use them all the time. The retaining products not so much.
    Cheers Ross

    Ross
    I disagree
    I can assure you the product works fine for the purpose it was meant for
    The examples you mentioned had to much play then or are overheated Over 160dgr C it loosens its strenght
    Bearings assembled with loctite you eighter have to heat up or use a decent press
    A 50 ton press fails to press out a bushing 100mm OD and 100mm long Probably smaller ones too

    Another thing with bearings is that the stationary race has a pretty loose fit from the get go
    That is according OEM standard So people think it is too loose while in fact it is not

    Peter

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    Peter:
    Your real world experience is different than mine....
    Not all bearing fits on the outer race are the same.....not all bearings are mounted into cast iron!
    Cheers Ross

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    Well, loctite is no magic fix all. It has its place and very much it’s limits. If you work well within these limits it can be a “magic” solution.

  16. #31
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    Hi All,

    In between the bearing and the step in the shaft is a special washer. It seems to serve 2 duties. one is the step on the shaft that stops the bearing is quite small, it would catch the bearing on the radius between the bore and flat face. The other use is as a end stop for the gears that rotate on the shaft.
    This washer is hardened and ground.

    It has suffered quite allot from the loose bearing, I have attached a picture of both sides, these I believe should both be flat. The circular groove has been worn in by the bearing inner race.
    48b0fed1-960d-474c-9f1a-3d1f5b19896a.jpg
    8f7d42d2-b05c-469a-a412-48995e14328a.jpg
    I need to replace this washer. I have had a look on Franzís website without luck. I assume he will find/make one on request. Not sure how long this will take, not to mention the shipping issues at the moment.
    option 2 have a copy made locally. Iím sure I can find someone who can harden and grind.
    Option 3 Make one myself, I canít make a hard one. Can get some 4140 locally and make it from that. Not sure if it is up to the job and canít inspect easily.
    Option 4 find something to modify, a standard shim? Needle thrust race washer? 3mm thick, 25mm inside. od doesnít seem to be to important, original is 38mm space for more. Anyone have an idea what I could use?

    Option 200.... get of my a$&)and get the myford mg12 operational.....

    Leaving out option 200, will a soft washer be ok? Iím leaning no but would like some other points of view.

    Thanks.


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