Deckel fp2 general questions and considerations during the renovation
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    Default Deckel fp2 general questions and considerations during the renovation

    Hi I started a new thread, where we can take a little more general questions about assembly of the deckel fp2. In the process of replacing the bearings that sit on the gear that drives both horizontal and vertical spindles. There are 2 ball bearings 6010. What I think about is what these should be lubricated with. Should it be grease or oil?

    wonder if anyone knows if it is possible to buy the bearing that is too the X handwheel, I can not find any numbers on what kind of bering it is. The bering that sits there is a Tapered one. On the drawing it says it should be a skf 51106-30 * 47 * 11. But on mine, it looks different. See the pictures.

    Best regadrs volvo 140140


    20191230_223327.jpg20191231_145354.jpg20200105_122436.jpg20200102_191249.jpg

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    Franz Singer was easy to do business with- GoogleFu for contact info. Haven’t had to buy anything for a while tho.

    Your handle reminds me I learned to drive in my Dad’s Volvo 145. And the first car I bought was a 1973 142. Couldn’t kill the thing, but wasn’t that impressive for date night...

    L7

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    Hi. I have sent him an email but have not received a reply yet. Hope he hears soon. Yes they are indestructible. I have an old Volvo 142 Deckel fp2 general questions and considerations during the renovation

    Skickat från min SM-N960F via Tapatalk

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    I have a general Deckel question... If I don't have a rotary table for my mill (I think this is an important accessory) is it worth looking for a real Deckel rotary table or is it better to get another brand of rotary table if I don't care about brand and just want functionality?

    I understand the Deckel rotary table has no provision for being used on the side, whereas most other rotary tables can be stood on their sides for use in vertical position. I believe the reasoning is to remove the work table and mount it on the vertical table if you want to use it vertically. That sounds like a less elegant solution compared to most other designs.

    So is there any other reason one would want a Deckel rotary table aside from collecting deckel brand stuff?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I have a general Deckel question... If I don't have a rotary table for my mill (I think this is an important accessory) is it worth looking for a real Deckel rotary table or is it better to get another brand of rotary table if I don't care about brand and just want functionality?

    I understand the Deckel rotary table has no provision for being used on the side, whereas most other rotary tables can be stood on their sides for use in vertical position. I believe the reasoning is to remove the work table and mount it on the vertical table if you want to use it vertically. That sounds like a less elegant solution compared to most other designs.

    So is there any other reason one would want a Deckel rotary table aside from collecting deckel brand stuff?
    Realistically I think you will cover most of your needs with a reasonably sized rotab, mountable both ways and having dividing plates and a morse taper where you can mount a collet chuck.

    Having said that, the Deckel rotab is fun since it's really huge and you can do most of the stuff you want without issues. But you have to have the indexing head as well, since that one is the one that can take collets etc. If you can have only one, the Deckel rotab might be limiting.

    (I don't think that the rotab is meant to be mounted on the vertical table directly, it doesn't make more sense than putting it regularly on the angle table and working with the horizontal spindle. Though I am sure there will be a use case for that as well )

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    I don't think that the rotab is meant to be mounted on the vertical table directly.
    I agree. All the oil would run out and it would make a real mess!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I understand the Deckel rotary table has no provision for being used on the side, whereas most other rotary tables can be stood on their sides for use in vertical position. I believe the reasoning is to remove the work table and mount it on the vertical table if you want to use it vertically. That sounds like a less elegant solution compared to most other designs.

    So is there any other reason one would want a Deckel rotary table aside from collecting deckel brand stuff?
    On a Deckel you don't need to mount the rotary table vertically. Just use the horizontal spindle to get the same spindle to rotary axis orientation. The Deckel rotary table is thinner than most rotary tables, so you save a little height on the z-axis. Gravity will also help during setup compared to attaching parts to a vertical table face. That said, I remember seeing a Deckel promo picture that someone had posted, (maybe Sean S)where they were cutting a massive gear on a FP1 with the rotary table mounted to the vertical face and using a single lip cutter in the vertical spindle to produce the gear tooth profile.

    For long pieces with a center you would use the indexing head with the over arm or table mounted tailstock.

    I am mounting the DRO and scales on my machine now (I am just working an hour here and there in the evenings and it seems to be taking forever). Once I regrease the spindles my machine will be operational. I have several jobs lined up for the rotary table and Deckel indexing head. I will post some pictures if any of the setups are unique.

    I hope this helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I agree. All the oil would run out and it would make a real mess!
    I see I did not even know that was a consideration, don't know enough about the deckel rotab... And I did not consider the horizontal spindle fully..

    Is the deckel accurate enough to make gears with or would a dedicated dividing head be recommended?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    ... I remember seeing a Deckel promo picture that someone had posted, (maybe Sean S)where they were cutting a massive gear on a FP1 with the rotary table mounted to the vertical face and using a single lip cutter in the vertical spindle to produce the gear tooth profile....
    I am 99% sure that the indexing was done manually/optically there, no rotab! And the cutter was a regular gear cutter.

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    No gears "cut" on a milling machine by definition are accurate no matter what the indexing method.....
    An accurate gear tooth profile with the exception of a rack can only be generated using a gear shaper or hobb. (guessing high end soft ware can now generate good profiles for wire EDM as well)
    For low speed low power applications, mill cut gears might be fine. But fro the real stuff where speed, noise wear and heat generation are factors, gears are generated on specialized machines, and often finish ground
    to finished profile....

    As to the use of the rotab in the vertical...Deckel had no issue with this when it was needed for a job.....Photos taken from an older FP1 Booklet..................






    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    No gears "cut" on a milling machine by definition are accurate no matter what the indexing method.....
    Alf, it is possible. Not generally done but possible. We were getting AGMA 10 teeth on slewing bearings with a gasher. The cutters were ten grand apiece and only good for one particular gear (pitch, pressure angle, number of teeth), but it can be done.

    Somewhere I have a few photos, will see if I can find them ...

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    Hey does anyone know why the Deckel Manual specifies the reservoir under the Z-axis nut should be bearing oil (gear box oil I assume) instead of way oil?

    I understand that you only use gearbox oil for the headstock slideways and other places in the headstock and above, because the oil makes it's way down into the gearbox, as well as upwards too, a cycle of oil exchange going on there, and I read that way oil in the gear box oil could destroy the properties of the gear box oil so you don't want to mix it.

    But doesn't this also happen when you put gearbox oil in the reservoir under the z-axis nut? Way oil is introduced in the knee and part of that oil drips onto the top of the Z-axis lead screw and presumably makes it's way down into the reservoir eventually. Isn't this a potential problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Hey does anyone know why the Deckel Manual specifies the reservoir under the Z-axis nut should be bearing oil (gear box oil I assume) instead of way oil?
    This is a tricky issue. In the 1955 FP2 manual they want gearbox oil in that reservoir. In the 1964 manual they call for way oil. I think this is because the design changed. There is a post of mine about this from a few years ago. If I can find it I'll add a link here. If you look at the cross section of the sump for the Z-axis lead screw, you can see the the design changed as well as the volume of the reservoir.

    [EDIT] Here is a discussion of this point:
    Finally bought an FP2

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    I believe I have the same two manuals as you do, a 1950s and a 1960s version. To me both versions say bearing oil for this (points 10/11 and 12/13 in the newer manual).

    The older manual says to drain and refill with 30 cubic inches or 500ml of oil and the newer version says to use 2 liters, this is mentioned in detail in both manuals a few pages after the lubrication diagram page. Quite a big difference in oil usage there. Both though seem to indicate "bearing oil".

    EDIT: I kept reading that thread and saw your photos of another manual that indicates way oil now. So there are two different oil prescriptions for two 1960s manuals.

    Edit again: Read to the end now and I think I will just use gearbox oil. It is also cheaper.

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    I will use gearbox oil in mine too

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    No gears "cut" on a milling machine by definition are accurate no matter what the indexing method.....
    An accurate gear tooth profile with the exception of a rack can only be generated using a gear shaper or hobb. (guessing high end soft ware can now generate good profiles for wire EDM as well)
    For low speed low power applications, mill cut gears might be fine. But fro the real stuff where speed, noise wear and heat generation are factors, gears are generated on specialized machines, and often finish ground
    to finished profile....

    As to the use of the rotab in the vertical...Deckel had no issue with this when it was needed for a job.....Photos taken from an older FP1 Booklet..................





    Cheers Ross
    Only now (after having a look at the high def scan that Erik posted here Thread of Deckel Manuals) did I notice that the FP1 in the famous 900 mm gear cutting picture doesn't have the bevel drive for the Y handwheel! It's mounted at the rear of the headstock!
    Which, apparently, means that the nut should be stationary and the screw rotating....

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Hi. Does anyone have an idea of ​​this, is this the original bearing of the x screw. what i can see in the manual there should be two trust bering and a sleeve. But in mine it sits this bearing.

    Even if someone knows what those kinds of bering are called. Best regards volvo 140140

    Skickat från min SM-N960F via Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I have a general Deckel question... If I don't have a rotary table for my mill (I think this is an important accessory) is it worth looking for a real Deckel rotary table or is it better to get another brand of rotary table if I don't care about brand and just want functionality?

    I understand the Deckel rotary table has no provision for being used on the side, whereas most other rotary tables can be stood on their sides for use in vertical position. I believe the reasoning is to remove the work table and mount it on the vertical table if you want to use it vertically. That sounds like a less elegant solution compared to most other designs.

    So is there any other reason one would want a Deckel rotary table aside from collecting deckel brand stuff?
    Hi Dennis - I have the Deckel Rotary Table but in reality and practically I use my Walter RT250 (250mm) rotary table. It oozes with quality as you'd expect from precision German engineering and infact my Deckel Dividing Head gathers dust too, I use a Walter HU100 (100mm centre height).

    Just my two pence worth ...

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by volvo 140140 View Post
    I will use gearbox oil in mine too

    Not sure i have the absolute answer here...but bear this in mind.....
    The only thing that touches the oil in that lower sump is the elevating screw....No gears, no bushings. The nut also sees this same oil when the table is raised and the oil is carried into the nut from below.

    The screw gets some trickle down via oil that is used above for the ways and feed gearing/clutches....
    Seems that one would want the same oil in that sump.....
    The ways get ISO 220 way oil (Vactra #4) ...That is what the screw gets ...think the sump should be the same.

    Bearing oil is used where the clearances are small and the speeds can be high (relatively). None of those conditions exist at the lower sump...There you want higher load carrying protection to retard
    any wear on the bronze nut..

    Not an FP1 guy...but that setup looks fishy compared to the "X" screw thrust setups i have seen (FP2) May be due to the build date of your machine... I think yours is fairly early. Might be a setup that was changed with later builds, or was modified by someone. ..Hard to tell exactly what is going on with those parts.....Might be friction thrust setup using flat washers and a spacer between, don't know.
    Cheers Ross

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    That bearing setup is from an early FP2, 1st generation with the switches lower down on the side. Mine is less than 1000 machines newer and has a completely different setup. I've never seen anything like that myself, but surely someone else with an early FP2 must have a similar setup.


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