Deckel FP2 how to free frozen horizontal quill?
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    Default Deckel FP2 how to free frozen horizontal quill?

    Hey y'all,

    I've just taken delivery of a late 60s (1968, probably) Deckel FP2, and I'm in the process of assessing the state of the machine. Most everything seems to move freely and the oil gauges all (both?) show oil present. Spindle and feed gears move smoothly, the power feed levers and clutch work like expected.
    The only real problem I've found so far is that the horizontal quill doesn't want to move. Before you ask, yes the quill lock is disengaged, though it's possible that I'm overlooking something . I was able to persuade it for about 20 thou or so by tapping on the back of the spindle (with a long piece of wood in between), but that seems like a pretty brutal thing to do.
    Is there some other good way to persuade a frozen horizontal quill?

    Please be gentle, I and my full complement of 10 thumbs are pretty new to machining...

    Siggi

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    Hi Siggi,

    Congrats on your new machine. You can identify the construction year exactly from the serial number.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Is there some other good way to persuade a frozen horizontal quill?
    These quills are a honed fit in the bores. On my FP2 the horizontal quill moves freely, but the clearances are so fine that when the machine warms up it starts getting tight from differential thermal expansion.

    Others here have had the same problem as you are describing and will give you good advice. So be patient and don't be tempted to violence.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

    PS: posting a few photos of your "new" machine will help attract attention and helpful comments.

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    img_5185.jpgimg_5190.jpgimg_5191.jpgimg_5187.jpgHi Siggi

    Welcome to PM and to the Deckel forum. I'm with ballen photos and more info always draw attention. I'm sure some one will post soon to help. I don't have a FP2 but just got a FP3 and am cleaning it up, making some small repairs and going to order some parts soon.
    I was cleaning up around that area on mine yesterday and took some photo's.
    I would think similar photos of yours would help other members with the problem.

    Andy

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    I was surprised after sliding the ram back how clean and well lubed everything looked. There was a little scoring on the slide surface of the ram but other than that it looked great. Mine was /is very dirty on the outside. What's yours look like on the inside of the Y ram?

    Andy

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    Andy, Siggi,

    The Practical Machinist forum has a good search function (near the top of this screen, in the middle of the second line). If you search for "stuck Deckel quill" you will find many posts that discuss this topic. It is worth reading these. Here is one thread from last year on this topic: Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill.

    This post from the previous thread shows the horizontal quill making its journey out of the machine: Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill. Siggi, if you ask nicely, Brian might lend you his extraction tool.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Hey y'all,

    thanks for the replies. After I posted I went and searched around a bit and I'd found the "Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill" thread. The quill on mine is totally retracted, though, so I think I'd need to pull through the quill. Whether pulling by the drawbar or by removing it.

    Here's a picture of the quill where it's at now:
    img_20190812_183355.jpg.

    Note the protective plate for the dovetail is bent - it's been hooked on something, and I wonder if that might be drawing in the quill bore. I couldn't find a hex key in my collection that fits those capscrews - I think I might need a 3.5mm key?

    I think I'll try and get some penetrating oil in through the quill lock hole and around the back of the quill before I do anything else.

    Siggi

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    Ok, got the quill freed. A little bit of seafoam, and then I could feel it moving when I leaned into the handwheel a bit. I oiled it up front and back and ran it in and out a couple of times.
    It still feels TIGHT, I wouldn't be able to move the handwheel with the least bit of grease on my hands. Don't know whether that's the feel you get from a proper good one. The quill looks spotless though, all shiny and beautiful - no galling or rust or any such.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Andy, Siggi,

    The Practical Machinist forum has a good search function (near the top of this screen, in the middle of the second line). If you search for "stuck Deckel quill" you will find many posts that discuss this topic. It is worth reading these. Here is one thread from last year on this topic: Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill.

    This post from the previous thread shows the horizontal quill making its journey out of the machine: Removing an FP2's Sticky Horizontal Quill. Siggi, if you ask nicely, Brian might lend you his extraction tool.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    I've tried to reply with a pic a couple of times, but each time I get a message that my message won't be displayed until a moderator has reviewed it.

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    Should be relatively free to move the quill using the hand feed when things are at normal room temp and the machine has not been running
    at higher RPM's.....

    Likely there is crap behind the clamp ring (old coolant varnish or dried lube)
    May not require removal of the lock ring, perhaps just pull the quill and clean around the locking ring...All needs to be free for things to work freely.

    For my money the quills are a giant part of the larger machines plus advantage (FP2---F3)...I would want them to move freely and easily. If they aren't free and sensitive, then what's the point,
    might as well just be restricted to using the "Y" slide feed.
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Should be relatively free to move the quill using the hand feed when things are at normal room temp and the machine has not been running
    at higher RPMs
    It’s interesting how the quill will get hard to move as you run at high speeds, but then if you give it a two-minute rest, the quill becomes easy to move again. The quill swells a couple tenths and starts to lock up, but then frees up as the quill temperature equilibrates with that of the surrounding iron.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Should be relatively free to move the quill using the hand feed when things are at normal room temp and the machine has not been running
    at higher RPM's.....

    Likely there is crap behind the clamp ring (old coolant varnish or dried lube)
    May not require removal of the lock ring, perhaps just pull the quill and clean around the locking ring...All needs to be free for things to work freely.
    Thanks Ross, I may try and pull the quill out now that it's moving fairly freely.

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    Um, this is pretty embarrassing. Turns out the vertical milling head has a collet sleeve stuck in it. I didn't think a 40 taper was locking like that? Note that there's an oil change log inside the cover housing the oil pumps/guns, which has a last entry in '87. Could be the machine hasn't been used since the late 90s.

    My first thought was to tap it out with the drawbar, but the drawbar isn't quite long enough to make contact . I guess I could turn some kind of expanding arbor to fit inside the back of the sleeve and pull on it with a slide hammer.
    Any other ideas for gentle ways to coax a stuck collet sleeve out of the taper?

    Incidentally, I bought the English manual from Tony at lathes.co.uk, but the print and the PDF don't allow me to distinguish between the "Bed Way Oil" and "Bearing Oil" symbols on the "Lubrication and Maintenance Schedule". Do you know a good source for a better quality image of the lubrication schedule at least?

    I figure I'll be changing the oil across the board and re-lubricating the works. I have 5 gallon bucket of way oil similar to Vactra 2 that should be a reasonable "Bed Way Oil". For my Chinesium lathe I also bought an amount of ISO 68 gear oil - would that be suitable for "Bearing Oil"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Um, this is pretty embarrassing. Turns out the vertical milling head has a collet sleeve stuck in it.
    ...

    My first thought was to tap it out with the drawbar, but the drawbar isn't quite long enough to make contact . I guess I could turn some kind of expanding arbor to fit inside the back of the sleeve and pull on it with a slide hammer.
    Any other ideas for gentle ways to coax a stuck collet sleeve out of the taper?
    Hmmm, found a thread discussing this (lots of good info on this forum - thanks y'all!). Looks like grabbing it by the flats with a suitable wrench and giving a light tap is the "done thing". Worth trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Hmmm, found a thread discussing this (lots of good info on this forum - thanks y'all!). Looks like grabbing it by the flats with a suitable wrench and giving a light tap is the "done thing". Worth trying.
    Yup, that totally worked (sorry about the monologue), though I needed to get some penetrating oil in there first. I left the collet in loosely so that the adapter wouldn't drop to the floor. However, after it broke loose I really thought I'd broken something, as it span freely, but wouldn't release from the spindle after I'd pulled the collet out. I guess the spindle taper and the adapter are in fairly good condition, as this was just the surface tension of the penetrating oil holding it.
    Last edited by sigurasg; 08-16-2019 at 08:58 AM.

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    Hi Siggi,

    You probably pulled out an adaptor for 355E collets.

    For SK40 heads, there are three forms of this adaptor. One has a tapered nose with two flats. One has a turned-down nose with no flats. The third has an extraction thread and nut. If you have either of the first two types, I suggest either throwing it away or putting it in a back drawer where it will first gather dust and then rust forever. Only the third type can be reliably extracted.

    For MT4 heads I have seen adaptors with and without threads. Again, those without threads should not be used, they can get horribly stuck.

    I have made a pulling tool which I will send on request to help unfree stuck holders. Here is a link to the pulling tool:
    New (to me) Deckel FP1. This can be used to remove stuck 355E holders from either SK40- or MT4-taper heads.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Some quick notes:
    Vactra #4 (ISO 220) for the ways.
    Both feed and spindle gearboxes: good quality "AW" 46 . (anti wear hydraulic oil) although for an older machine would guess that ISO 68 would be fine.

    Things i would put on the "to Do" list....
    The way wipers for the top of the "Z" slide should be replaced....
    Any damaged or missing way cover bellows...(single best thing as to aesthetic improvement to the machine one can make IMO)

    Oil guns are cute...but almost worthless.
    To lube the vertical slide/long axis you need to fill the sight glasses at both sides of the vertical slide before each days of running.....
    There are two "zerk" style fittings on the vertical slide (non operators side) These are oil fittings not for grease.

    To fill the sight glasses takes almost a full oil gun on my FP2....the remaining oil will almost certainly leak out when the gun is stored.
    Better option is to fit a "one shot" style oil pump /tank and plumb it to the oil inlets ...some posts on this.

    If this were my machine and having no real service or use history, i would seriously ponder cleaning and repacking (term loosely used here) both spindles...Lots of info here on this
    and you need to evaluate your ability to do this level of work.....

    Proper measuring tools, correct grease along with correct fitting spanners are an absolute necessity to a successful job.
    If you decide to go forward on the spindles...start with the horizontal....leave the vertical intact..that way you will have a machine to make the needed spanners etc....

    Would also consider replacing the oil wicks that fees oil from the "Y" slide internals to the "Y" slide ways...There are how oil get transferred to the slide and they can become clogged with age and use...
    Plain cotton (un-waxed) candle wicking works fine here.....(crafts store)

    I would take some time and run the machine and evaluate how all is working, then formulate a course of action....

    FP2's are a great machine....you will enjoy using yours i will wager....Welcome to the club!
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Some quick notes:
    Vactra #4 (ISO 220) for the ways.
    Huh - TIL. I looked up the difference between #2 and #4 and it appears #2 is for horizontal slide ways, whereas #4 is for vertical (and/or high-precision) .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Both feed and spindle gearboxes: good quality "AW" 46 . (anti wear hydraulic oil) although for an older machine would guess that ISO 68 would be fine.
    Ah, thanks - I can get some AW46 for the old girl .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Things i would put on the "to Do" list....
    The way wipers for the top of the "Z" slide should be replaced....
    Any damaged or missing way cover bellows...(single best thing as to aesthetic improvement to the machine one can make IMO)
    Good to know. Mine has the way covers, but the left-side X (from the front, opposite operator side) pops out. I take a quick looks, looks like the metal clips are all there, but loose from the cover. The Z and Y covers are present as well, but look somewhat beat up.
    I'll have to pop them, see whether I can fix them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Oil guns are cute...but almost worthless.
    To lube the vertical slide/long axis you need to fill the sight glasses at both sides of the vertical slide before each days of running.....
    There are two "zerk" style fittings on the vertical slide (non operators side) These are oil fittings not for grease.

    To fill the sight glasses takes almost a full oil gun on my FP2....the remaining oil will almost certainly leak out when the gun is stored.
    Better option is to fit a "one shot" style oil pump /tank and plumb it to the oil inlets ...some posts on this.
    Interesting, maybe in due course. In the meantime I have a full complement(?) of three oil guns(?) inside the side panel. Do they have a designated purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    If this were my machine and having no real service or use history, i would seriously ponder cleaning and repacking (term loosely used here) both spindles...Lots of info here on this
    and you need to evaluate your ability to do this level of work.....
    Yeah, this'll have to wait until I have some more experience and get my sea legs.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Would also consider replacing the oil wicks that fees oil from the "Y" slide internals to the "Y" slide ways...There are how oil get transferred to the slide and they can become clogged with age and use...
    Plain cotton (un-waxed) candle wicking works fine here.....(crafts store)
    This I can almost certainly manage .

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I would take some time and run the machine and evaluate how all is working, then formulate a course of action....

    FP2's are a great machine....you will enjoy using yours i will wager....Welcome to the club!
    Cheers Ross
    Thanks, I'm really looking forward to making chips. I got the Deckel dividing head and the circular table in the deal too.
    However, before I she'll run I need to coax'er over a threshold, through a door and down a hallway. Also will need to install a VFD and do a bit of re-wiring. Can't wait, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    You probably pulled out an adaptor for 355E collets.

    For SK40 heads, there are three forms of this adaptor. One has a tapered nose with two flats.
    The one I pulled out has a tapered nose with two flats.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I have made a pulling tool which I will send on request to help unfree stuck holders. Here is a link to the pulling tool:
    New (to me) Deckel FP1. This can be used to remove stuck 355E holders from either SK40- or MT4-taper heads.
    Thanks - will keep it in mind, though hopefully it won't come to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    The one I pulled out has a tapered nose with two flats.
    If you have 355E collets (also known as U2 collets) then I would not use that adaptor. You can get one of the threaded kind with an extraction nut for about 40 Euros new from RC-Machines:
    open end reduction sleeve ISO40-U2 with extractor - RCORAU2SK40 | Open | Reduction | MACHINE ACCESSORIES | RC Machines Luxembourg EN[/QUOTE]

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    Inside the electrical cabinet, I found the wiring diagram. I've scanned it to a PDF, but the document exceeds the size limit I can upload. If there's any interest in the document gimme a ping and I'll email it your way or otherwise find a way to make it public.


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