Deckel FP2 how to free frozen horizontal quill? - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    The felt piece goes under the "Y" axis ram (horizontal arbor housing)as a wiper in front of the long drive gear in the base.
    Ah, cool, I suspected as much, but I couldn't find any diagram showing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    If you remove the two screws holding the plate between the y-axis dovetails in the front...
    Yeah I need to get that plate off. It's been "hooked" on something, so is bowed out (forwards) and the screws are totally cammed out.

    Back to oiling for a sec. Do the Y leadscrew & nut get oil from the gearbox somehow? The oiling instructions want the screw tended and oiled (with bearing oil) once a month, but no daily squirt that I can understand.

    Also, I saw there's a Zerk fitting on top of the vertical head. I opened it up to see what's up with that, and I had what looks like way oil dripping out of it. Is this standard issue, e.g. to oil the quill etc?

    The gears looked pretty dry, so I cleaned them and gave them a bit of that grease I bought from Franz Singer.

    I managed to glue up the hanging X-axis bellows and re-fit the X and Z bellows. They're functional, but not really in great shape, alas. Especially the Z bellows, which have a tear in them. I guess I'll go ahead and replace all the bellows soon-like.

  2. #82
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    Hi Nigel,

    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    The felt piece goes under the "Y" axis ram (horizontal arbor housing)as a wiper in front of the long drive gear in the base. If you remove the two screws holding the plate between the y-axis dovetails in the front you can retract the y axis till the lead screw comes loose and you can slide the ram back to access the felt wiper. There is also a felt piece in the back, but I think they just give you one as only the front gets dirty.
    I remembered the felt strip in the back but not in the front. I don't have any good photos of the front but dug these out. This is my 1964 FP2, number 422.

    Here's the back, you can see the felt strip just in front of the narrow gear which drives the Y-axis lead screw nut.



    Here is the front as it looks when you push the ram back. See the piece in the middle held on with the two screws? Is that a holder for the felt strip?



    Here are zooms of the front area underneath. In the pictures there is no felt strip that I can see, but I wonder if there is a part missing from the photos which is supposed to hold that. Has anyone got a photo showing that front metal strip held on with the two screws? Does that carry the felt strip?





    [EDIT]
    I just looked in the manual and there it is. Part 16 is a metal strip, which traps the felt and is held on with the two screws visible in the second photo above. Part 17 is the felt strip itself.


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  4. #83
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    Here is picture of the top (from the back operator side)and you can see the felt strip at the front. Unfortunately I didn't take one from the front when I had it apart.
    deckel-top-web.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails deckel-top-web.jpg  

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  6. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Here is the front as it looks when you push the ram back. See the piece in the middle held on with the two screws? Is that a holder for the felt strip?
    Yups that was the one - thanks! I wouldn't be surprised if the felt in there dated back to the sixties - it looked pretty limp. By comparison I had a hard time packing the new piece into place.

    The plate I was talking about, however, was the one on the front of the ram: img_20190812_183355.jpg
    See how it's bent as if it was hooked on something. I couldn't figure out the size of those screws, no key I had would fit. Turns out that the face of those screws was dished in, and I could tap a 4mm hex key into them, get them loose that way. Got it off and beat it flat, now I need to find new screws, as the old ones are going in the bin.

    I changed the felt - but it was not pretty in there! Chips packed everywhere, so that's where the chips I found in the oil came from I'm sure. The V-slot up front is presumably for returning splashed oil back to the spindle gearbox, it was pretty well littered with chips too.
    I'll need to line up some help and get the ram off at some point. I fear I may have put the machine down too close to a wall, and the gib won't come out without moving it - alas.

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  8. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    The conduits were missing on my mill. The threads on the main conduit into the junction box on the back of the mill are PG-29. I got a PG29 to 1.25" npt adaptor and used 1.25" liquid tight conduit with 1.25" fittings. On the electrical box side I used an 1.25" npt to liquid tight elbow as the Deckel elbow was missing. The fittings to and from the motor are PG16 threads which I got an adaptor to convert it to 1/2"npt. You can probably find an electrical supplier online to buy the stuff from.
    I found a local electrical supplier that's the bees knees just 15 minutes up the road. Ended up with 1 1/4 armoured conduit and fittings. As I'm replacing the electrical box, I'm just terminating that end with a suitable elbow fitting. The mill end is a bit of a mess, however.
    Looks like there's an adapter from 37/1.5mm threads to whatever (larger) metric thread the old conduit termination needed.

    I guess I'm going to be turning a suitable adapter with 37/1.5mm threads on one side and ~1 1/16"-16 on the other. Thankfully my lathe will cut both metric and imperial threads, though it remains to be seen whether I do .
    Looks like there's a taper on the ID of the imperial end to terminate the conduit too. The original adapter is brass, but the only suitable stock I have is 304 or 316 - I don't suppose there's any issue with stainless for this sort of application?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nigel Tudor View Post
    The threads on the main conduit into the junction box on the back of the mill are PG-29
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Looks like there's an adapter from 37/1.5mm threads to whatever (larger) metric thread the old conduit termination needed.
    Hold on - PG-29 is the thread I need. It's a 37mm OD, 16TPI, 80 degree thread angle. The other end is PG-42, 54mm, 16TPI.
    OMG, what an abomination, metric ID with TPI threads! While I'll have to grind a custom threading tool, I guess I won't need to mess with the transposing gears at least .

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    I have the electrical cabinet wired to the point where I can run the mill.
    What a joy this mill is to use, I'm so glad I missed out on that Bridgeport back when . I can now turn stock into scrap with amazing precision and efficiency.

    While I have the power and basic controls working, I'm still waiting on a braking resistor before I finish the cabinet up. The front panel will have main power on/off, run/stop fwd/back & jog. I figure jog will be mainly used to timidly back out taps under power - we'll see. As-is I have the motor coasting to a stop, which can take a while under higher spindle speeds.
    Pictures coming once it's all finished and a little bit de-uglified.

    I notice the vertical spindle gets slightly warm to the touch after a minute or so when I run it at 2000RPM, but at 1000RPM the warm-up is barely noticeable. By comparison, the horizontal spindle doesn't feel like it's any warmer at all, but then it's nicely ensconced in the head arm and oil-splattered.
    Is this about par for the course?

    Once I had the mill running, I discovered that I don't really have any reasonable way to clamp the little Chinesium milling vise to the table. I jury-rigged a hairy-scary gitup with aluminum and 10#32 screws to make first (aluminum) chips.
    I've since ordered a 7/16" hold down clamp kit with 3/8" studs. From threads I found on the forum, it seems that's a reasonable way to go for 12mm slots.

    I got a really strange drill-chuck with the mill. It appears to allow pulling down a sleeve to release the tool, and it has 4 jaws. It's mounted on two different adapters, however, which eat up a whole lot of vertical.

    Is there a favorite way to get a regular drill chuck hooked up to these spindles?

  11. #88
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    Drill chuck sounds like a "Walstrom" ,change bits etc. without stopping the spindle. The shank in those chucks can not be removed like a Jacobs etc., they either have Morse or straight shanks.

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  13. #89
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    Congratulations on getting the machine running!

    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Is there a favorite way to get a regular drill chuck hooked up to these spindles?
    Deckel made two types of Morse Taper -> SK40 adaptors. The first type is for drill bits with a knock-out tang. That retains to the tool via friction. The second type is for MT arbors which are threaded for a (here in Germany metric) retention drawbar. The adaptor has a screw to retain the arbor; the screw is centered in the threaded S20x2 drawbar stud.

    So to answer your question, my Albrecht drill chuck is mounted on a B16 arbor which is retained in an MT3 adaptor. There is an alternative that gains you another couple of cm of headroom, which is a drill chuck integrated into an SK40 taper, like this:

    Kurzbohrfutter SK40 DIN69871 D1-16 fur Deckel Frasmaschine | eBay

    On German Ebay if you enter "Bohrfutter Deckel Fräsmaschine" you'll get an idea of the different options.

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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEvans View Post
    Drill chuck sounds like a "Walstrom" ,change bits etc. without stopping the spindle. The shank in those chucks can not be removed like a Jacobs etc., they either have Morse or straight shanks.
    Ah, yes, that’s what it is ~ thanks! I had trouble reading the lettering on the chuck, it’s been well used.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Default How is the Y-axis nut oiled?

    Now that my FP2 is usable, I'd like to make sure I don't damage anything by running dry.

    I verified that oil gets around the X-axis nut and the X & Z axis slideways while I had the table off. I've verified that the Y-axis slideaways get plenty of oil, though I still need to change the wicks.

    I've changed the oil in the Z-axis reservoir. Per the instructions in the manual I gave it about 2L of "bearing oil", which in my case is AW46. I couldn't help wondering whether the instructions really meant to fill the reservoir up until the cup will take no more oil. How do you all do this?

    I pulled back the bellows on the Y-axis, and it looks like oil is getting at the nut, but I found myself wondering where that oil comes from. It has to be either from the feed or spindle gearboxes, and my current theory is that some of the splash from the main gearbox gets back there somehow.
    Do you all know how oil gets to the Y-axis nut? Does this also lubricate the feed bevel gears?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    I pulled back the bellows on the Y-axis, and it looks like oil is getting at the nut, but I found myself wondering where that oil comes from.
    I think the way it works is that the oil is carried up by the gear train. It gets onto the long front-to-back gear at the top and some of it gets onto the aluminium tray. That carries some of the oil back where it runs onto the gears that drive the Y lead-screw nut and the Y feed gears. You will notice that the Y axis bellows (on the side near the lead-screw nut) are attached to an "overflow tray" which catches oil coming from the lead screw and feeds it back to the sump. In normal use the area around the Y-axis lead screw nut and power feed gearing should be swimming with oil.

    Cheers, Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 10-28-2019 at 01:41 AM.

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  19. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Hold on - PG-29 is the thread I need. It's a 37mm OD, 16TPI, 80 degree thread angle. The other end is PG-42, 54mm, 16TPI.
    And there we go, a PG-29 to PG-42 adapter:
    img_20191103_131436.jpg
    fits like hand in glove. Sadly it didn't occur to me to mill flats on it before I disconnected the wire loom for a test fit, and then the sloth kicked in.

    I can't say I enjoyed turning the (304) stainless, it made a whole lot of stringy long chips. Witness the mess left in the chip pan:
    img_20191103_131442.jpg

  20. #94
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    And here's finally a picture of the old girl fully operational.
    img_20191103_184047.jpg
    she looks pretty handsome in her new battle dress (Z-bellows).

    I've changed the oil in the spindle and feed gearboxes, as well as the Z-screw reservoir with AW46. I got new way wipers and new Z-bellows from Franz Singer.
    I've verified all the slideways and screws are getting oil. I emptied the coolant sump and gave her a general cleanup, though I didn't go too crazy with the cleaning.
    Now to make some chips .

    I'm still waiting on a braking resistor, but otherwise the cabinet is done:
    img_20191103_184114.jpg.

    The electrical box has power on/off/emergency off at the bottom. On top there's direction and jog, then start stop for the spindle. The latter are wired in series/parallel to the on/off switches on the mill itself.

    I'm not sure the jog button will be useful where it's at now, as I figure I'd often want one hand on the spindle lever as I'm backing out - I guess time will tell.
    Last edited by sigurasg; 11-04-2019 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Forgot "coolant sump"

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    Nice job, and good looking machine (apart from the horrible paint job!). I am sure you will enjoy using it. Adding a DRO would be a worthwhile upgrade IMO.

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    Nice looking setup. For me think i would have toggle switches to set the machine push buttons to either run continuous of jog depending on the toggle position, and also a toggle
    switch for forward/reverse.....Would consider having the reverse toggle only allow jogging at the machine push buttons to eliminate any chance of extended reverse running....

    Running a tool while reaching all the way to the wall i think you will find less than optimal.
    Cheers Ross

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  26. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Would consider having the reverse toggle only allow jogging at the machine push buttons to eliminate any chance of extended reverse running....
    That's a good idea. I wonder if I can't somehow wire the reverse toggle such that the start button engages the jogging.
    That would kill two birds in one stone, as the start button on the mill is in quite the convenient location, assuming I'm standing on the operator's side.

  27. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    apart from the horrible paint job
    Argh, you had to bring that up - eh?
    Maybe in retirement I'll do the disassembly and give her a paint job. Not just yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Adding a DRO would be a worthwhile upgrade IMO.
    Yeah, I did add a DRO to my Chinesium lathe, it was totally worthwhile. I've been eyeing the scale mounting locations people use for FP2 - looks like the Y goes on the operator's side, and presumably the Z as well. Seems like a bit of a shame to obscure the manual scales, though - are there other options?

    How about the X? On one picture I saw it mounted underneath the vertical table, which seemed to leave the scales pretty exposed when using the vertical table or moving the horizontal table. Are there better options?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Argh, you had to bring that up - eh?
    I have exactly the same problem on my machine. Some of the crap paint just flaked off/scraped off. One of these days I might do something about it. But it is better to first use the machine and discover/sort out any problems. Paint is the last step.

    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Are there better options?
    Here is the "factory" scale mounting for my FP2: Repairing Heindenhain VRZ 753B + LS803 scales

    The Y is on the door side, does not block the adjustable stops. Z on mine is on the operator side. It blocks the Z axis lock, but I don't need/use that. I have also seen Z mounted on the door side. Regarding X, key point is to keep the scale behind the vertical table so it does not block/interfere.
    Last edited by ballen; 11-06-2019 at 12:41 AM.

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  30. #100
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    Default Value of spindle braking?

    I just got the braking resistor and I wasted no time in hooking it up and testing it. I think I might be coming to a realization that it's perhaps not worth much to brake a mill with a VFD.
    Now, the VFD ramps down the output frequency at a fixed rate until it gets to a cutoff frequency. The cutoff frequency is 3Hz by default, I believe, and after that it can additionally "DC brake" for a set time - which I'm weary of.

    If there's a lot of angular momentum in the system, like the spindle is running at 2K RPM, the motor doesn't have the torque to brake it very quickly. The end result of e.g. a 1 second ramp-down is that the spindle slows down maybe half way then coasts from there. If I set a longer ramp-down time, the spindle will slow down further (100RPM for 3Hz at the 2000RPM setting).

    If, however, the spindle is moving quite slowly (as would be the case when power tapping) the ramp-down probably takes longer than coasting to a stop would.

    My Chinesium lathe has a foot brake which I use quite a lot. It's mostly a convenience to slow the spindle down quickly before taking a measurement or to change the tool. It's also, however, a safety mechanism when e.g. I get a rats nest tangle around the chuck, I can just stomp on the brake and bring the mess to a very quick stop.

    Anyhow, I'm wondering whether spindle braking a mill is worth the trouble at all. I guess I'll have to play with this while using the mill in anger, but I'd love to hear your opinions and experiences.


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