Deckel FP2 - No power to X/Y/Z axis plus oil leak seepage - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    So machine working great yesterday, a lot of work with the "X" and "Y" axis and my bracket made to hold my newly purchased Newall DP700 Unit

    img_2954s.jpg img_2956s.jpg

    Today ready to start fitting the "X" axis DRO scale, I wanted to check the full travel of the X axis and take some measurements re-assuring myself that the trip dogs were still functioning correctly (they did last week). Firstly a manual wind end to end - no problem.

    I checked the trip dogs to be absolutely sure that they were all OK and secure and pinned in their default positioned then powered up and engaged the power feed then got down low and watched the travel from the underside.

    img_2796s.jpg img_2797s.jpg

    At about 25mm / 1" before the trip dog engagement there was a crunch, I managed to hit the emergency stop but TOO LATE - WTF the table had gone beyond travel and crunched the righthand end cap!

    fp2-fault01-10.jpg

    feelings right now? GUTTED!

    But why and how could this happen - WHAT's changed??

    If you read back, during the week I'd been machining no more than 150mm laterally in the centre of the table so no where near table limits, went away for a drink, came back and the "Shear pin" had actioned. The table was also solid.

    The "Fix/recovery" was easy, just eased the gib strips, cleaned them and all was OK. A full day of machining yesterday here we now are with a "F****D "X" axis.

    WHY???? ... Could the leadscrew nut have undone therefore allowing more travel and punching through the end cap??

    Can't think straight right now and confess to not know if this is possible or what is possible???

    NOT even thinking of cost yet ...

    John

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    Bloody hell! That sucks!
    Takes a break, get some distance.
    Things will look better when the shock has had time to settle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boat Brat View Post
    Bloody hell! That sucks!
    Takes a break, get some distance.
    Things will look better when the shock has had time to settle.
    Yep you're right of course, just finished my second G&T ... and more to come!

    I think as time goes on, the damage will ease and the costing concerns will grow (Wish I hadn't asked the seller to change the leadscrew nut - then I could not doubt his work )

    John

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    That’s the spirit(s)

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    Hi first let me apologise for bursting in on this thread. I am new and desperate to talk with someone who has knowledge of a deckel fp4m. Particularly in relation to the X, Y and Z-axis power feed. When engaged no axis work. I have tried every direction overall 3 axes. When selecting the high or low range on the trav you can hear the motor working but getting no drive. I have noticed a hand dial on the rear of the machine which can be pulled out which engages into gears when i let go it pops back in? Is this something to do with it? when i hold it out and rotate it the axes moves in any direction i choose. HELP HELP HELP

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    Hi John,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    But why and how could this happen - WHAT's changed??
    Sorry to hear about this. I'm sure that Franz can sell you a new end cap. Alternatively you may be able to braze the broken one back together. I am sure that someone here can say for sure.

    I am not sure but I suspect that the end stop for the power feed was not in the correct location. There is a pin that is supposed to locate it, but that pin might be broken or missing.

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    Hmmm Hear what you're saying Bruce but "Something" has changed ... yes maybe Franz can supply me a new end cap but WHY did it crash before it hit the stops .... the stops ARE in the default factory positions!

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Design engineer View Post
    Hi first let me apologise for bursting in on this thread. I am new and desperate to talk with someone who has knowledge of a deckel fp4m. Particularly in relation to the X, Y and Z-axis power feed. When engaged no axis work. I have tried every direction overall 3 axes. When selecting the high or low range on the trav you can hear the motor working but getting no drive. I have noticed a hand dial on the rear of the machine which can be pulled out which engages into gears when i let go it pops back in? Is this something to do with it? when i hold it out and rotate it the axes moves in any direction i choose. HELP HELP HELP

    Start a NEW thread ... don't hi- jack this one!

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  10. #29
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    First off I am not even close to an expert since my new to me FP2 is still in pieces but it does give me the opportunity to look over all the associated parts.

    I don't think this has anything to do with the lead screw nut. Even if the retainer is loose is should just result in excessive backlash or possibly the nut just spinning in the bore causing the table not to move.

    I have 3 concerns for the cause. Why didn't the shear pin break first? What caused the X axis to jam which is the only way I could see this damage happening. Did you run the table all the way to the trips by hand first? Finally what damage is on the door side of the lead screw? That end has a bearing and a retainer with a taper pin that should be parts of controlling end play of the screw in the vertical table so both ends should have received equal force. I find it hard to believe the other end flexed enough to allow the operator side to break so I would be looking for a sheared taper pin hopefully and not damage to the screw.

    I think you will find one or more of your gibs are jammed again that led to this. First and foremost I would be verifying the shear pin is the correct material and installed correctly before doing anything else.

    I am sorry for your loss. That is a tough break.

    Shawn

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    Oh man you are having some really bad luck with this machine Hopefully you can buy a new cap from Singer or have that one brazed or TIG welded with nickel filler. Or maybe stitched. Not sure what would be cheaper, but I am sure it can be repaired if that's the way you want to go.

    It's strange how it could have happened before the trips even had a chance to engage... Is it a 400 or 500mm machine? Some part of me wonder if the reason for the problems can have been parts from a 500mm machine being fitted on a 400mm travel machine, or vice versa... Probably very unlikely, but you had the vertical spindle head also replaced so I dunno.

    EDIT:
    I agree with 65AMC, it is probably the gibs and not my unlikely theory. I am also concerned that the shear pin should have broken before the cap did but this did not happen... Did you make your own new shear pin, was it the right material? I believe the correct steel is free machining steel that breaks cleanly. Nothing too durable or tough. I fear if you use mild steel it might not break but can deform.

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    Hold on tight! After all, you have machining tools, they are very helpful in...repairing machining tools! You'll get that fixed for sure!

    Did the socket head cap screws break their head? Or was the bottom of the counterbore on the cover damaged? I am almost certain that in my twin-dial older model the cover has studs that are fixed with nuts inside the table and not screws (these nuts are notorious for being difficult to reach, that's why they changed that I guess). I guess that the screwed on cover might be more vulnerable to such forces and easier to break.

    Which is a good thing, feel nice that nothing more expensive didn't break!

    Good luck on the repair.

    BR,
    Thanos

    ps1. (a good way to do a sanity check on the trip dogs without power is to move towards the end of the travel, machine stopped, and try to engage the feed. It should hit the trip dog and not allow you to engage. Then you can move towards the middle of the travel slowly and see at which point the feed can be engaged. That's the point that, roughly, the trip dog would kick in normally.)

    ps2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post

    At about 25mm / 1" before the trip dog engagement there was a crunch, I managed to hit the emergency stop but TOO LATE - WTF the table had gone beyond travel and crunched the righthand end cap!
    Is this accurate John? Did it actually go beyond travel???

  14. #32
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    I have a endcap from a FP2 500mm travel
    It will probbably fit
    PM me

    Peter

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  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 65AMC View Post
    First off I am not even close to an expert since my new to me FP2 is still in pieces but it does give me the opportunity to look over all the associated parts.

    I don't think this has anything to do with the lead screw nut. Even if the retainer is loose is should just result in excessive backlash or possibly the nut just spinning in the bore causing the table not to move.

    I have 3 concerns for the cause. Why didn't the shear pin break first? What caused the X axis to jam which is the only way I could see this damage happening. Did you run the table all the way to the trips by hand first? Finally what damage is on the door side of the lead screw? That end has a bearing and a retainer with a taper pin that should be parts of controlling end play of the screw in the vertical table so both ends should have received equal force. I find it hard to believe the other end flexed enough to allow the operator side to break so I would be looking for a sheared taper pin hopefully and not damage to the screw.

    I think you will find one or more of your gibs are jammed again that led to this. First and foremost I would be verifying the shear pin is the correct material and installed correctly before doing anything else.

    I am sorry for your loss. That is a tough break. Shawn
    Hi Shawn, thanks for your message.

    OK, to answer your questions.

    The shear pin did break and it was a pin purchased from Franz Singer a few years ago.
    Yes I did run the table manually to the end of travel (my X travel is 400mm)
    There is no visible damage that I can see at the door end of the table.

    The gibs seem free, after the crash I was still able to wind the table manually.

    Still wondering why????

    John

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    Blimey John, rough ride you're having, nasty to see a break like that on such a lovely machine and in such puzzling circumstances. Sorry, nothing I can think of to add in terms of a solution/diagnosis but you have my sympathy, commiserations!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    Oh man you are having some really bad luck with this machine Hopefully you can buy a new cap from Singer or have that one brazed or TIG welded with nickel filler. Or maybe stitched. Not sure what would be cheaper, but I am sure it can be repaired if that's the way you want to go.

    It's strange how it could have happened before the trips even had a chance to engage... Is it a 400 or 500mm machine? Some part of me wonder if the reason for the problems can have been parts from a 500mm machine being fitted on a 400mm travel machine, or vice versa... Probably very unlikely, but you had the vertical spindle head also replaced so I dunno.

    EDIT:
    I agree with 65AMC, it is probably the gibs and not my unlikely theory. I am also concerned that the shear pin should have broken before the cap did but this did not happen... Did you make your own new shear pin, was it the right material? I believe the correct steel is free machining steel that breaks cleanly. Nothing too durable or tough. I fear if you use mild steel it might not break but can deform.
    Hi Dennis - Thanks for your messages and thoughts ...

    Firstly all three sets of trips were tested and functioned correctly less than two weeks ago.
    My table is a 400mm but I've no idea if it started out as a 500mm but as above the trips worked previously.

    As for the shear pin, I missed seeing it broken yesterday but it has sheared and I fitted a genuine one as supplied from Franz Singer several years ago.

    Still scratching my head??

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by bikepete View Post
    Blimey John, rough ride you're having, nasty to see a break like that on such a lovely machine and in such puzzling circumstances. Sorry, nothing I can think of to add in terms of a solution/diagnosis but you have my sympathy, commiserations!
    Hi Pete - thanks for your comments ... another bottle of Gin would help

    John

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  21. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    I have a endcap from a FP2 500mm travel
    It will probbably fit
    PM me

    Peter
    PM sent Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hold on tight! After all, you have machining tools, they are very helpful in...repairing machining tools! You'll get that fixed for sure!

    Did the socket head cap screws break their head? Or was the bottom of the counterbore on the cover damaged? I am almost certain that in my twin-dial older model the cover has studs that are fixed with nuts inside the table and not screws (these nuts are notorious for being difficult to reach, that's why they changed that I guess). I guess that the screwed on cover might be more vulnerable to such forces and easier to break.

    Which is a good thing, feel nice that nothing more expensive didn't break!

    Good luck on the repair.

    BR,
    Thanos

    ps1. (a good way to do a sanity check on the trip dogs without power is to move towards the end of the travel, machine stopped, and try to engage the feed. It should hit the trip dog and not allow you to engage. Then you can move towards the middle of the travel slowly and see at which point the feed can be engaged. That's the point that, roughly, the trip dog would kick in normally.)

    ps2.

    Is this accurate John? Did it actually go beyond travel???
    Hi Thanos - Ah miss information on my behalf ... NO, the table didn't get to the end of travel, if it had the trips should have worked but the crunch happened BEFORE the trip could action.

    John

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    might not be a bad idea, while you're changing the end cap, to remove the lead screw altogether, and slide the table with your hands to get a feel how it moves and check for any tight spots, then pump in some oil and check again if still moves as freely as before, adjust gibs accordingly

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    might not be a bad idea, while you're changing the end cap, to remove the lead screw altogether, and slide the table with your hands to get a feel how it moves and check for any tight spots, then pump in some oil and check again if still moves as freely as before, adjust gibs accordingly
    Thanks for your comments JZ, appreciated as always.

    John


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