Deckel FP2 - No power to X/Y/Z axis plus oil leak seepage - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi John,



    Sorry to hear about this. I'm sure that Franz can sell you a new end cap. Alternatively you may be able to braze the broken one back together. I am sure that someone here can say for sure.

    I am not sure but I suspect that the end stop for the power feed was not in the correct location. There is a pin that is supposed to locate it, but that pin might be broken or missing.
    Hi Bruce - thanks for your further comments - I wish I could say the trip dogs were in the wrong place but they are not and the location pins are present and in their correct postion too. Futhermore they were tested less than two weeks ago and functioned correctly.

    John

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    Sorry about your trouble....strange happenings here....
    On the initial problem (tight gibs) thought it very strange that the machine was running fine and when returning from a tea break, that
    the "X" slide was seized tight and that the shear pin was broken....

    Must have happened just as the machine was turned off...got to have motor on to break that pin...

    As to the current issue...logic suggests that the problem is in the linear movement of the slide, and not with the screw or nut.

    If the nut or screw seized or it ran out of travel, the only result would be increased torque loads to the upstream side of the drive....
    No end thrust would be generated in stopping the screw from rotating.

    What you have there is the lead screw continuing to rotate (apply pressure) and the slide being prevented from moving.....Excess load on the end cover (thrust) and resulting casting failure
    Need to investigate the potential causes of the slide stopping..Seems it is not the limit of the slide that is in play here.

    If all that looks correct, i might look closely at the operators side thrust bearing for the "X" lead screw....Might be possible for the rollers to get dislodged and stack up making the bearing
    thicker than normal. This "jacking" effect would be translated into making the screw longer than the distance between the two end covers...the result of the added length has to go somewhere...

    Hope you keep us in this loop, very curious about what you eventually find.

    As to the brass "shims" added to the friction surface of the gibs, Not seen this done. Have shimmed gibs before, but always put the shim on the non bearing face and then re-scrape the original gib surface to
    give for good contact at a proper installed position....
    Would be suspicious of that brass....For starters,the fact that brass will easily embed grit or dirt and carry that constantly over the iron mating surface.....This is exactly how a "Lapp" is made.

    Personally i would remove the brass and replace it with "Rulon" or Turcite". scrape for fit.

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross

    Thank you for you comments, sincerely appreciated as always.

    I did try to PM you but your inbox is indicating as full?

    Cheers John

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Must have happened just as the machine was turned off...got to have motor on to break that pin...
    JimK mentioned years ago that some FP2s had a problem with the rapid lever release-- if the lever was not eased back, if it was allowed to spring back from full engagement, the shear pin would break. I don't remember the full details and couldn't find his post with a quick search.

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    Breaking that endcap requires some decent force
    We saw a gap there previous
    How is that closed
    Just tightening the bolts on the inside to close the gap witout looking if the endcap goes into the right position without too much force may get so much strain on the thing that it spontainisly broke

    Peter

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Attachment 269696

    feelings right now? GUTTED!
    Ouch, I have nothing to contribute but condolences. I hope you get to the bottom of what happened and get the mill going again.

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    Well after feeling my way very cautiously and a couple of questions to Bruce and Peter I began the removal of the end cap today.

    The cap itself was a PITA to remove as it's very hard to get at two of the four 17mm hex nuts ...
    Has anyone refitted an end cap with M10x50 Cap Head Allen bolts??

    Here'e the extent of the crack:

    img_3010s.jpg img_3011s.jpg img_3012s.jpg

    Also I was expecting to find a roller bearing in the end cap ... should there be one??? ... I've just got a plastic/nylon ring??

    fp2-fault01-16.jpg

    The hardest part to remove was the X axis locking lever ... I was looking for a M3 Taper pin, firstly in a previous life the pin had been filed flat against the shoulder of the lever body and the ends of the pins simply were not visible so I end up taking best part of two hours with a Dremel and I ground the lever body away "trying not to damage the main through bar ... to cut the story short, the taper pin did not go through the handle at 90 degrees from side to side but rather went into the operating bar at about 60 degrees so I was NEVER going to see the smaller end to drift out. Yet another botched previous job on this machine

    Now for you specialists ... can I just slide the table locking lever (Red arrow) out as I need to turn down about 6mm of damaged bar??? or when I withdraw it will something drop within the mechanism??

    fp2-fault01-15.jpg

    All comments welcome

    John

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    Will defer to those with more current exposure, but i believe the nylon ring is jive....Not seen that before and does not look like factory to me.
    (not sure i have ever seen plastic bearings used on any of these manual Deckels for any application)....

    Yes removing the end covers is a pain....need some offset end wrenches and such to get things loose.
    The later FP-NC's had Allens applied from outside , not sure on the later manual machines.
    My early FP3 (single motor) has the end covers mounted using Allen bolts through form the outside, and having rubber plugs fitted at the cover surface to close the access holes for the bolts.

    Sorry can't answer your primary question about the locking shaft...my gut feeling is that you can remove the shaft, but i will wait for someone who has better first hand knowledge...Safety [email protected]


    Cheers Ross...

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    I have this piece that goes through to the other side and on the other side there is another thrust bearing and two lock nuts holding everything together. I can't remember if there was a piece of nylon in the center or not, there might be one between the two thrust bearing races, but there is no roller or b all bearing.







    As for the locking shaft, in the center of the table the shaft is a cam that acts against a round piece of metal that pushes downwards against the gib to lock the table. This can fall out when you remove the lower gib, it did for me. It made reassembly difficult, I had to resort to greasing the little part to get it to remain so I could reinsert the gib before it fell down.

    P.S. By that I mean that since the piece that the cam acts on is located below the shaft, it can be removed without something falling out, at least on my machine it was set up like this.

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    Oke
    With the right tooling t took me10min to get the end cap off
    I left the hex rod for clamping in place You can pull it right out that way
    To put the hex rod back in you have to get it in the right position but with everything laying down it was easy to put it back
    I can put the part in vertical position and try once more tomorrow
    I measure things up then too

    Peter

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    Here is the parts drawing of the operator's side endcap:
    fp2-endcap.jpg.

    The plastic piece would be part 2001-162 in that drawing. The way it's drawn, however, I'd expect it to be a metal spacer sized pretty accurately to support the inner half of the thrust bearing races.
    This endcap seems to handle all thrust load, but the only loads on it should be axially from the screw.

    To state the obvious, when the table travels towards the operator, the screw will push on the cap, whereas in the other direction it will pull on it. I mention this because I find it strange that the crack in your endcap is larger on the outside of the cap, near the locking lever, than around the screw itself. It's almost as if the locking lever seized up and pushed on the endcap.
    Which direction was the table traveling when this happened?

    The endcap on the other side has a ball bearing in it, but I don't think it carries any load. It's just there to support the leadscrew at the door end, and from memory the screw has a relatively loose sliding fit in that bearing.
    I know on CNC machines you want the screws to be radially supported at the far end from the thrust bearing to stop them whipping. You also want axial play to allow for temperature expansion. This looks like the same kind of setup.
    Last edited by sigurasg; 11-13-2019 at 11:50 AM. Reason: speling[sic] and grammer fixes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Will defer to those with more current exposure, but i believe the nylon ring is jive....Not seen that before and does not look like factory to me.
    (not sure i have ever seen plastic bearings used on any of these manual Deckels for any application)....

    Yes removing the end covers is a pain....need some offset end wrenches and such to get things loose.
    The later FP-NC's had Allens applied from outside , not sure on the later manual machines.
    My early FP3 (single motor) has the end covers mounted using Allen bolts through form the outside, and having rubber plugs fitted at the cover surface to close the access holes for the bolts.

    Sorry can't answer your primary question about the locking shaft...my gut feeling is that you can remove the shaft, but i will wait for someone who has better first hand knowledge...Safety [email protected]


    Cheers Ross...
    Hi Ross, thank you for your valued input, gut feeling is that I'll replace the studs (already removed) with Cap Head Allens.

    Still need some clarification on the hexagonal locking lever bar.

    Cheers John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Still need some clarification on the hexagonal locking lever bar.
    I recently took the table off my FP2, and I had hands on this during de- and reassembly. You can pull the hex locking bar right out without trouble.

    The hexagonal bar slides through the locking bushing. This bushing has an eccentric portion that pushes on the locking pin. The locking pin in turn pushes on the lower gib to lock it.

    Note that the hex bar slides in the locking bushing as you move the table around, as the bushing sits in the saddle. The way this is machined, the locking pin retains the locking bushing, so long as the gib is in place. If you pull out the lower gib, the locking pin will drop down to the dovetail, freeing the locking bushing, and make it difficult to impossible to re-fit the gib.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    I have this piece that goes through to the other side and on the other side there is another thrust bearing and two lock nuts holding everything together. I can't remember if there was a piece of nylon in the center or not, there might be one between the two thrust bearing races, but there is no roller or b all bearing.

    As for the locking shaft, in the center of the table the shaft is a cam that acts against a round piece of metal that pushes downwards against the gib to lock the table. This can fall out when you remove the lower gib, it did for me. It made reassembly difficult, I had to resort to greasing the little part to get it to remain so I could reinsert the gib before it fell down.

    P.S. By that I mean that since the piece that the cam acts on is located below the shaft, it can be removed without something falling out, at least on my machine it was set up like this.
    Hi Dennis, great pictures! Yes I've got the same as you - thrust bearings either side and it would appear from the above observation from Sigurasg that there is a nylon spacer or bush - I'll order a new one along with other bits from FS.

    Your comments do confuse me about the hexagonal locking lever bar though, so say "This can fall out when you remove the lower gib, it did for me. It made reassembly difficult, I had to resort to greasing the little part to get it to remain so I could reinsert the gib before it fell down" ... are you sure you mean the gib rather than the lever locking bar.

    Really looking for clarification on withdrawing this hexagonal bar ...

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Here is the parts drawing of the operator's side endcap:
    fp2-endcap.jpg.

    The plastic piece would be part 2001-162 in that drawing. The way it's drawn, however, I'd expect it to be a metal spacer sized pretty accurately to support the inner half of the thrust bearing races.
    This endcap seems to handle all thrust load, but the only loads on it should be axially from the screw.

    To state the obvious, when the table travels towards the operator, the screw will push on the cap, whereas in the other direction it will pull on it. I mention this because I find it strange that the crack in your endcap is larger on the outside of the cap, near the locking lever, than around the screw itself. It's almost as if the locking lever seized up and pushed on the endcap.

    Which direction was the table traveling when this happened?
    Hi Sigurasg - great spot on the internal collar, just added that to my FS shopping list - might was well replace it when I find a replacement end cap.

    As for the table direction it was running from Door End to Operator End when the table stopped about 25mm / 1" before the trip dogs then came the cracking of the operator end cap.

    John

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    Hi John,

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Your comments do confuse me about the hexagonal locking lever bar though, so say "This can fall out when you remove the lower gib, it did for me. It made reassembly difficult, I had to resort to greasing the little part to get it to remain so I could reinsert the gib before it fell down"
    I haven't said anything about this because it's been a few years since I have poked around there. But what I remember is the following. The locking shaft is hex. Over part of that shaft goes an eccentric bushing. The bushing bears on one end of a short rod. The other end of that rod pushes the low gib downwards to lock the table.

    So, if you remove the hex shaft, with the gib in place, then the short rod will stay in place, and you can reinsert the hex shaft, no problem. BUT if you remove the gib, then in principle the short rod can slide down into the space normally occupied by the gib and block the reinsertion of the gib. Usually that rod has a good-size gob of grease on it and won't drop down when the gib is removed.

    So, if my memory is correct, the real "danger" is removing the lower gib and having that short rod drop to where it blocks the reinsertion of the gib. Removing the hex shaft just adds some extra vibration and jiggling in that area, which might encourage the rod to drop if the lower gib has been removed.

    Others here have much more recent experience with this area of the machine. So if their description contradicts mine, then mine likely incorrect.

    I hope you get your machine in order without too many more unpleasant surprises. You've had a run of bad luck.

    Cheers, Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Oke
    With the right tooling t took me10min to get the end cap off
    I left the hex rod for clamping in place You can pull it right out that way
    To put the hex rod back in you have to get it in the right position but with everything laying down it was easy to put it back
    I can put the part in vertical position and try once more tomorrow
    I measure things up then too

    Peter
    10 minutes?? I'd have expected 5 from a full time professional machine engineer

    I'd really appreciate a little more detail here please "everything laying down it was easy to put it back" ... sorry I'm being a bit thick here

    Really looking forward to hearing about the measurements too - thank you.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    As for the table direction it was running from Door End to Operator End when the table stopped about 25mm / 1" before the trip dogs then came the cracking of the operator end cap.
    Well then, so much for my theory. Guess the slide ways bound up somehow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi Dennis, great pictures! Yes I've got the same as you - thrust bearings either side and it would appear from the above observation from Sigurasg that there is a nylon spacer or bush - I'll order a new one along with other bits from FS.

    Your comments do confuse me about the hexagonal locking lever bar though, so say "This can fall out when you remove the lower gib, it did for me. It made reassembly difficult, I had to resort to greasing the little part to get it to remain so I could reinsert the gib before it fell down" ... are you sure you mean the gib rather than the lever locking bar.

    Really looking for clarification on withdrawing this hexagonal bar ...

    John
    I tried to find the relevant pictures last night, but I have not been able to show you anything. As sigursag said, it's a locking pin, it sits in this hole:


    The hole goes all the way through to the lower dovetail. It is intersected by the channel for the hexagonal rod and the cammed potion (edit, is a separate bushing) matches up with the hole. There is no risk of the locking pin falling down and out into the lower dovetail until the lower gib is removed, so IMO the hex rod can be removed safely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi John,



    I haven't said anything about this because it's been a few years since I have poked around there. But what I remember is the following. The locking shaft is hex. Over part of that shaft goes an eccentric bushing. The bushing bears on one end of a short rod. The other end of that rod pushes the low gib downwards to lock the table.

    So, if you remove the hex shaft, with the gib in place, then the short rod will stay in place, and you can reinsert the hex shaft, no problem. BUT if you remove the gib, then in principle the short rod can slide down into the space normally occupied by the gib and block the reinsertion of the gib. Usually that rod has a good-size gob of grease on it and won't drop down when the gib is removed.

    So, if my memory is correct, the real "danger" is removing the lower gib and having that short rod drop to where it blocks the reinsertion of the gib. Removing the hex shaft just adds some extra vibration and jiggling in that area, which might encourage the rod to drop if the lower gib has been removed.

    Others here have much more recent experience with this area of the machine. So if their description contradicts mine, then mine likely incorrect.

    I hope you get your machine in order without too many more unpleasant surprises. You've had a run of bad luck.

    Cheers, Bruce
    Yes this is exactly how it worked out for me. And yes the cam was a bushing that went over the hex rod, not an integral part of the shaft. It can only come out if you pull the hex shaft out towards the operator side too as there is a stop inside to make sure the cam stops at the right place.

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