Deckel FP2 - No power to X/Y/Z axis plus oil leak seepage - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    10 minutes?? I'd have expected 5 from a full time professional machine engineer

    I'd really appreciate a little more detail here please "everything laying down it was easy to put it back" ... sorry I'm being a bit thick here

    Really looking forward to hearing about the measurements too - thank you.

    John
    John
    Yes 10 min But that included coffee

    I have a scrap machine that is partly disassembled So the whole knee is off and I can lay it down
    Here is a picture of the tooling I used


    I would not use hex bolts

    This end cap is from a older machine
    The good news for you is that the boltpattern will fit
    Now the bad news
    The way the spindle is held in place is much different
    It would need some serious machining to make it fit
    See picture


    Also the overall dimensions are about 2 to 3 mm bigger

    Peter
    Last edited by Peter from Holland; 11-14-2019 at 06:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    John
    Yes 10 min But that included coffee

    I have a scrap machine that is partly disassembled So the whole knee is off and I can lay it down

    I would not use hex bolts

    This end cap is from a older machine
    The good news for you is that the boltpattern will fit

    Now the bad news
    The way the spindle is held in place is much different
    It would need some serious machining to make it fit

    Also the overall dimensions are about 2 to 3 mm bigger - Peter
    Oh B****r! .... Back to the drawing board then

    Thank you very much for trying, I'll drop you an email later.

    Cheers

    John

  4. #63
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    Ask Singer if he has something
    He has plenty scrap machines

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Ask Singer if he has something
    He has plenty scrap machines - Peter
    Hi Peter, Thanks, email already sent tonight

    John

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    Did you figure out what caused the stress on the endcap casting yet?

    The three hypothesis I've seen are:
    1. X slideway bound up. Doesn't seem likely as you were able to easily able to move the table by hand after the crunch.
    2. X locking shaft bound up and pressed out the end cap. Doesn't pan out as you were traveling the other way.
    3. Jacking effect in thrust bearing.


    The last one seems likeliest, as the the increased leverage in the jacking might cause the failure before the shear pin cuts out. If there's play in the thrust bearings, could the balls travel up the groove in the race? This would certainly cause a lot of stress with massive leverage by pushing the end caps apart.

    Did you find any evidence of this when you disassembled the trust bearing assembly? Were the locking nuts loose, or was there play the assembly? Are the thrust bearing races messed up at all? Is there evidence of the balls traveling outside the groove?

    How is the ball bearing in the door side end cap? If it bore the pressure that split the casting, I'd expect it to be a little crunchy...

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  9. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi folk

    Seems like my "New" FP2 is haunting me right now

    It arrive around a month ago and has not done any work until this morning when I started to make some brackets for my newly arrived DRO system.

    It had been working fine in the X axis with the powerfeed and manual use of the X and Z handwheels for about an hour then I started to get oil drips from both sides of the main apron around the lower bellows area. This I felt reasonably happy with as the oil galleries had been recently cleaned from grease contamination.

    Then being a true Brit I decided to stop for a cup of tea as one bracket was just complete.

    Having return to the machine some 45 minutes later I began to setup for another bracket only to find the "X" handwheel locked solid! On closer examination I also saw the "Operators" end lead screw end cap had opened up to around 0.75mm/0.030" which I'd not seen or noticed earlier. Together with this the "X" scale dials have started to seperate.

    My first conclusion was that the machine had a new X axis leadscrew nut fitted prior to delivery and something has failed.

    On further investigation with power on there was NO POWER to the X, Y or Z feeds???

    Now something from the distant past is telling me there is a safety "Shear pin" somewhere and if this fails all power feeds are lost???

    I'm also concerned that the operators end "End Cap" has moved??

    Nothing has been working at extreme limits of travel (today my maximum X cuts were around 125mm) and last week and prior to today's work I tested all three sets of trip dogs for my own peace of mind (all functioned as they should).

    All comments greatly welcomed Pictures of today's stopage shown below.

    MTIA

    John

    Attachment 269465 Attachment 269466 Attachment 269467 Attachment 269468 Attachment 269469

    How did you got this gap closed????
    When there was something wrong here that the endcap could not close easy and then the nuts were just tightened you can get some serious tension on the casting
    Resulting in cracking
    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Did you figure out what caused the stress on the endcap casting yet?

    The three hypothesis I've seen are:
    1. X slideway bound up. Doesn't seem likely as you were able to easily able to move the table by hand after the crunch.
    2. X locking shaft bound up and pressed out the end cap. Doesn't pan out as you were traveling the other way.
    3. Jacking effect in thrust bearing.


    The last one seems likeliest, as the the increased leverage in the jacking might cause the failure before the shear pin cuts out. If there's play in the thrust bearings, could the balls travel up the groove in the race? This would certainly cause a lot of stress with massive leverage by pushing the end caps apart.

    Did you find any evidence of this when you disassembled the trust bearing assembly? Were the locking nuts loose, or was there play the assembly? Are the thrust bearing races messed up at all? Is there evidence of the balls traveling outside the groove?

    How is the ball bearing in the door side end cap? If it bore the pressure that split the casting, I'd expect it to be a little crunchy...

    Hi Sigurasg

    Well I'm still hunting the for the answer ... but to respond to your questions:

    There is absolutely NO evidence of ball race damage either end that I've found AND

    Really was desperate to mill some flats on bar for "Tee" nuts today so went to extract the old Shear pin BUT it had NOT sheared, the end of a pin I recovered must have been stuck in the exit hole of the Shear pin fitting because I'd recovered the broken pin after the last failure.

    fp2-fault01-17.jpg

    But looking closely at the pin there is a witness mark that it has started to shear and "Maybe" I got to the Emergency split seconds before?

    So recapping:

    1. X was "Normal", manual wind left to right and back to the centre of the scale (20cm) all OK.
    2. Power feed applied ... motored to about 25mm / 1" from the RIGHTHAND (Operators end) end and crashed the casting.
    3. Shear pin NOT snapped

    ... and now ordered a replacement End cap from Franz Singer (Being sprayed grey FoC) ... Now planning a raid on Fort Knox to pay for the "Used" replacement

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    How did you got this gap closed????
    When there was something wrong here that the endcap could not close easy and then the nuts were just tightened you can get some serious tension on the casting
    Resulting in cracking
    Peter
    Hi Peter

    The previously noted 0.75mm gap I reported after the first failure I did nothing about as it just "Closed" of its own accord so I guess the pressure had eased off?

    While writing - a BIG thank you for all you efforts, sadly I've had to bite the bullet and pay FS (All their staff are going on a world cruise now )

    John

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    Hi Sigurasg et all!

    Well I'm still hunting the for the answer ... but to respond to your questions:

    There is absolutely NO evidence of ball race damage either end that I've found AND ...

    Yesterday I was really desperate to mill some flats on a bar for "Tee" nuts so went to extract the old shear pin and fit a new one BUT it had NOT sheared. The previous end of a pin I found must have been a stuck one in the exit hole of the Shear pin fitting because I'd recovered the broken pin after the last failure.

    fp2-fault01-17.jpg

    Looking closely at the pin there is a witness mark that it has started to shear and "Maybe" I got to the Emergency split seconds before?

    So recapping:

    1. X was "Normal", manual wind left to right and back to the centre of the scale (20cm) all OK.
    2. Power feed applied ... motored to about 25mm / 1" from the RIGHTHAND (Operators end) end and crashed the casting.
    3. Shear pin NOT snapped

    ... and this morning's findings were by total accident. I had previously looked at the lefthand end of the table closely and found nothing. Today I was winding the table to the left by putting a drift through the handwheel spring pin hole on the lead screw and suddenly the table felt much easier to move. I stopped and looked at the lefthand end and the taper pin in the lefthand end had sheared but previously you would not have known, see the first picture below (All looks absolutely normal). What showed was the locking collar had the thick end and the thin end of the taper pin in place and the leadscrew had the centre section of the taper pin still in place.

    4. Door End Leadscrew end cap Taper pin sheared (See pictures)

    fp2-fault01-18.jpg
    fp2-fault01-19.jpg

    So now more confused by the series of events

    Any of you guys got an idea of the series of events??

    John
    Last edited by Jersey John; 11-18-2019 at 02:08 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi Sigurasg et all!
    4. Door End Leadscrew end cap Taper pin sheared[/B] (See pictures)

    Attachment 270270 Attachment 270271
    Hey John - these pictures don't work for me. Re-upload, perhaps?

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    I cannot see the pictures either. In your shoes I would be worried about putting the replacement cap on without first nailing down what happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    Hey John - these pictures don't work for me. Re-upload, perhaps?
    Pictures reloaded

    John

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    I think there is a problem with your machine that you have not found yet
    Perhaps it is a idea to fix your old end cap temporaraly by bolting on some sheetmetal with epoxy between casting and sheetmetal
    Then try to find your problem

    Peter

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    If it was me I would commence with a tear-down of the vertical table and take pictures of the whole process and post it here, remove the gibs, lead screw and nut and detailed pictures of everything and maybe something will pop out at the experts here.

    It's really strange that the casting broke before the shear pin, I can only assume something was putting a lot of pressure on it even when it was working.

    Part of me wonders if it's the brass on the gibs maybe that is the root cause, or is there some debris in there that binds it up... Only by opening it up for inspection can one be sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    ...
    the taper pin in the lefthand end had sheared but previously you would not have known, see the first picture below (All looks absolutely normal). What showed was the locking collar had the thick end and the thin end of the taper pin in place and the leadscrew had the centre section of the taper pin still in place....
    Hey there John,

    So this answers what happened to the door-side cover...(somebody had asked that before). That poor taper pin is not a shear pin, not so easy to break...it took quite some force I guess. I would assume the shearing happened axially (w.r.t. the leadscrew), right?

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    Hi Dennis ... It's beating me too ...

    I can also wind slack into the leadscrew and push it very smoothly L2R or visa versa.

    Also while writing I can now confirm that the previously mentioned plastic/nylon spacer in the end casting between the outer and inner bearing races is a genuine Deckel part (P/n. 2001-162 Kunstoffring) as I received a replacement today from FS.

    John

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    Hi Thanos, thanks for your comments

    Yes I know the 4x30 DIN1 is not a shear pin but rather a taper pin but it most certainly has "Sheared" both ends of the leadscrew hole and as you very rightly say with huge force required!

    KR

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    I think there is a problem with your machine that you have not found yet
    Perhaps it is a idea to fix your old end cap temporaraly by bolting on some sheetmetal with epoxy between casting and sheetmetal
    Then try to find your problem Peter
    Hi Peter,

    I'm in agreement with you, the replacement End Cap that I've ordered from FS is going to sit on the shelf until I get this fault solved.

    Thanks for your input

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Yes I know the 4x30 DIN1 is not a shear pin but rather a taper pin but it most certainly has "Sheared" both ends of the leadscrew hole and as you very rightly say with huge force required!
    This could have happened when your gib bound up, though?

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    Small point regarding the shear pin.
    Must be sure it is installed in the correct direction.
    The head should end up on the outside of the drive collar, and not nested into the larger hole.
    Pin is installed on the small hole side of the collar.
    Fitting the opposite way around will put the pin into double shear and create higher break away forces than desired.

    Be sure pins are made to the factory drawing, and not too long which can also put the pin into double shear.

    Cheers Ross

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