Deckel FP2 - No power to X/Y/Z axis plus oil leak seepage - Page 5
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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    This could have happened when your gib bound up, though?

    This could only happen if the thrust bearings were loose as far as I see it
    Or after the end cap gave away

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Small point regarding the shear pin.
    Must be sure it is installed in the correct direction.
    The head should end up on the outside of the drive collar, and not nested into the larger hole.
    Pin is installed on the small hole side of the collar.
    Fitting the opposite way around will put the pin into double shear and create higher break away forces than desired.

    Be sure pins are made to the factory drawing, and not too long which can also put the pin into double shear.

    Cheers Ross
    Hi Ross

    The "Shear pin" was installed the correct way around with the spring keeper holding it there. The hole at the opposite side to the pin is much larger as you well know and I suspect a previously sheared end of the pin was held there with old oil.

    The shear pins themselves are genuine ones supplied by Franz Singer

    The double shear was from the Taper pin situated in the colar at the lefthand end of the leadscrew.

    Thank you for your comments - always appreciated, just wish I could pin down the fault.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    This could have happened when your gib bound up, though?
    I can only agree with you Sigurasg. Sadly we'll never know whether it happened at the first seizure when the "Shear pin" DID fail.

    If you remember I'd stopped for a drink and returned to the machine and the table was solid. So thinking on from that there would be nothing to stop the leadscrew pushing through the end cap ... am I thinking right??

    Was that broken taper pin the reason for the second failure?? ... can't see wood for trees!

    John
    Last edited by Jersey John; 11-18-2019 at 05:57 PM.

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    Time to carefully remove the long feed (X) gibs again!
    Being that they are fitted with brass wear facing i would examine them closely to see if there is any evidence that things got tight ....
    Look at the gib against a good light (sunlight is best) so to sight down the surface at a slight angle.....
    You are looking for any sign that things got tight, disturbed or distorted. Pay most attention to the portion of the gib that would be in play when the table got tight.

    Also pull the locking shaft out and examine its surface as with the gib....looking for any sign that things got tight or seized up. That locking shaft is a hex so be sure to examine all facets.

    There are only just so many places that could generate this kind of thrust and break the casting.....Something had to stop moving, or something was out of position to cause this.

    Cheers Ross

    On edit: looking again at the photos of the failed (broken) end cap, it suggests that the most likely source is the locking shaft for the gibs.....
    Failure appears to be most severs close to the locking lever shaft location. Might be a false clue as the strength of the casting and its thickness might have played a role in
    how the crack appears to have propagated...but sure looks suspicious to me......

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Time to carefully remove the long feed (X) gibs again!
    Being that they are fitted with brass wear facing i would examine them closely to see if there is any evidence that things got tight ....
    Look at the gib against a good light (sunlight is best) so to sight down the surface at a slight angle.....
    You are looking for any sign that things got tight, disturbed or distorted. Pay most attention to the portion of the gib that would be in play when the table got tight.

    Also pull the locking shaft out and examine its surface as with the gib....looking for any sign that things got tight or seized up. That locking shaft is a hex so be sure to examine all facets.

    There are only just so many places that could generate this kind of thrust and break the casting.....Something had to stop moving, or something was out of position to cause this.

    Cheers Ross

    On edit: looking again at the photos of the failed (broken) end cap, it suggests that the most likely source is the locking shaft for the gibs.....
    Failure appears to be most severs close to the locking lever shaft location. Might be a false clue as the strength of the casting and its thickness might have played a role in
    how the crack appears to have propagated...but sure looks suspicious to me......
    Hi Ross - Thanks for your comments again. Actually I pulled the locking shaft yesterday and it's prestine on all surfaces ... it's just 6mm/1/4" shorter due to the handle end being re-machined because of the butchered taper pin hole (see above).

    I'll pull and re-exam the gibs over the next few days and report my findings.

    John

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    John, one further thought. Is there any way that something could have "smacked" the hex shaft for the X axis table lock on the door side? That would transmit force through to the locking lever and could then crack the operator side end cap. For example if the hex locking shaft is too long, that would do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    John, one further thought. Is there any way that something could have "smacked" the hex shaft for the X axis table lock on the door side? That would transmit force through to the locking lever and could then crack the operator side end cap. For example if the hex locking shaft is too long, that would do it.
    Morning Bruce - thank you for your comments

    I really don't think so ... remember a week previous, all was OK and the power feed operated as it should in all axis. Absolutely nothing had changed except one day or should I say hour it was fine, the next was the first table seizure which once examined was solid then gibs eased (with ease and still feel silky smooth)and OK again until the second seizure under the power feed?

    So so strange!

    John

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    OK, three weeks have passed and I believe I may have an idea what went wrong - for the wise ones here maybe you'll see my reasoning or point out a reason why my though process is wrong!

    I believe the first seizure is the cause of the second. The initial fault was a jammed table which caused the "Shear" pin to fail. The first point I noted when looking to ease the top and bottom gibs was that the gib screws were only engaged in the thread by maybe two threads at the most. This made them loose enough for their shoulder to be ineffective and NOT hold the gib.

    Why were they so far out? ... well I believe that the "brass" (I think) extra layer on the gib made the gib thicker and therefore would not go in as far, so much so that the gib screw was not long enough to grip and "HOLD" the gib therefore I think the the shoulder of the gib screw did not sit firmly in the gib recess and on one occasion during the my milling from LEFT to RIGHT the gib was drawn in and locked the table solid causing the seizure and operation of the shear pin.

    Now the second seizure and distruction of the "Operator" End cap ...

    I did not inspect the "Door" leadscrew end of the table after the first failure because the thoughts in general were tight gibs (which was correct). I had also only been working the "X" axis around the middle of the table.

    When I used the "X" power feed to check the left and right limits in preparation for a DRO being fitted. I think the leadscrew powered through the end cap because what had not been noticed previously was the "DOUBLE" shear/snap of the "Door End" taper pin running through the steel collar. With that collar taper pin broken the leadscrew would be able to travel around another 12-20mm / 1/2"-3/4" and drive through the "Operator" End cap.

    ... and why did the power feed shear pin not fail? ... well I guess I was just a split second ahead of the machine by hitting the Emergency stop.

    Where am I now ... well the replacement end cap arrived on Friday and the machine was re-assembled Saturday. Today I did some machining but only "Manually" using the "X" axis. The original cracked cap has gone away for specialist welding (yes I have been warned about minor distortion but nothing I shouldn't be able to rectify).

    Once it's back I plan to refit it before I test the "X" axis powerfeed as I can't afford to damage another end cap and pay for Franz Singer's world cruise, this replacement was BIG MONEY).

    OK, over to you for comments!

    John

    PS: One point on my End caps ... both ends have a little adjustable M6 x 18 Hex Head bolt screwed into the the cap ... I guess it's a small stop of some kind??? ... the "Replacement" End cap is not drilled for the screw so how important is it??? (See Picture below)

    fp2-fault01-20.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    When I used the "X" power feed to check the left and right limits in preparation for a DRO being fitted. I think the leadscrew powered through the end cap because what had not been noticed previously was the "DOUBLE" shear/snap of the "Door End" taper pin running through the steel collar. With that collar taper pin broken the leadscrew would be able to travel around another 12-20mm / 1/2"-3/4" and drive through the "Operator" End cap.
    If this holds up, that's an interesting observation as my own mill has some oddness in that position, the purpose of the steel collar is thus not just a drive key for an accessory and to keep the bearing place, but also to prevent the leadscrew from turning too far and breaking the operator side cap.

    Properly set up then, instead of just the operator side cap taking all the force like in your scenario, the door side cap will also be under compression and prevent the operator side cap from facing all the load on it's own, and the door side can bear the load better since cast iron handles ocmpression better. And if the load gets higher the shear pin should let go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    ...

    When I used the "X" power feed to check the left and right limits in preparation for a DRO being fitted. I think the leadscrew powered through the end cap because what had not been noticed previously was the "DOUBLE" shear/snap of the "Door End" taper pin running through the steel collar. With that collar taper pin broken the leadscrew would be able to travel around another 12-20mm / 1/2"-3/4" and drive through the "Operator" End cap....
    Hey there,

    what you are saying makes sense, but I still have some grey points:

    - the machine should work even without the door-side cover altogether! Thrust bearings on the operator side would allow the screw to drive the table back and forth. So, I can't see no reason for this thing to happen before the feed tripped! There must have been some other reason for the table to bind BEFORE the trip dogs.

    - can't remember if you ever mentioned which direction you were traveling along when the incident happened. It it was towards the door, then the screw compresses the cover and there should be something else that hit the cover.

    - I see your machine is metric, that is 4 mm screw instead of 1" of the imperial. Due to the finer pitch of the imperial, I would, intuitively, expect the imperial version to be able to cause more damage before the shear pin snapped, if all wasn't perfect down there. For your metric model, I can't understand why the shear pin didn't protect you both times. (first time ended up with a double sheared taper pin and, possibly, the start of a crack on your cover, second time crack was completed). There could be the case that your machine had an incorrect shear pin, so it didn't break on time first time. So, you double sheared the pin and initiated the crack. Second time the table was somehow blocked, you had the correct shear pin but the crack needed only so much force to fully develop because the initial crack was already there.

    - Could it be that after the first incident you adjusted the gibs too tight? Then, if the crack was already there but invisible, it might not even have required binding the table to show, the resistance of the tight gib at the unworn portion of the travel could suffice.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Not sure i totally understand your scenario for the failure.
    If i read you correctly, you believe that taper pin that retains the end collar/helical milling attachment drive failed, and that allowed the lead screw to move further toward the operators side and
    that extra movement is what caused the cover to fracture....

    I think this is faulty logic i am afraid...That end bearing carries no end thrust in normal conditions. It is there only to support the screw, there should be no tension (axial) on the end collar. The purpose to that collar is to
    provide a coupling for drive gears used with the spiral milling attachment....
    The entire force to push/pull the table (X) right or left is fed through the thrust bearing (operators side end cover) into the operators end cover......Unlike the FP-NC's that leadscrew is not in tension between the end covers, it
    has thrust forces (in normal operation) only applied to the operators side end cover.....

    My suspicion is that the taper pin failed at the same time that the operators side cover was broken.....
    Table stopped moving, the screw continued to rotate, excess force applied to the operators side cover through the thrust bearing, resulting in the fracture. further the additional movement of the screw moving the additional distance of the fracture, then applied compression forces to the door side cover, and against the outside collar/bearing which is what caused the failure of the taper pin.....

    The pin failure is the result of the operators side cover being broken, not the other way around....

    I would restate my original opinion....Loose those brass shim plates.....Make new gibs,or remove the brass and bond Turcite/Rulon to the wear surfaces in place of the brass and finish scrape to match your slide ways getting
    the adjustment in normal range of the adjustment screws....

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    If this holds up, that's an interesting observation as my own mill has some oddness in that position.
    Hi Dennis, yes I'm aware of the full purpose of the collar/taper pin ... what "Oddness" are you experiencing?

    John

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    Hi Thanos - thank you for your further comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Hey there,

    what you are saying makes sense, but I still have some grey points:

    - the machine should work even without the door-side cover altogether! Thrust bearings on the operator side would allow the screw to drive the table back and forth. So, I can't see no reason for this thing to happen before the feed tripped! There must have been some other reason for the table to bind BEFORE the trip dogs.

    - can't remember if you ever mentioned which direction you were traveling along when the incident happened. It it was towards the door, then the screw compresses the cover and there should be something else that hit the cover.

    The direction of travel was left to right (Door end to Operator end)

    - I see your machine is metric, that is 4 mm screw instead of 1" of the imperial. Due to the finer pitch of the imperial, I would, intuitively, expect the imperial version to be able to cause more damage before the shear pin snapped, if all wasn't perfect down there. For your metric model, I can't understand why the shear pin didn't protect you both times. (first time ended up with a double sheared taper pin and, possibly, the start of a crack on your cover, second time crack was completed). There could be the case that your machine had an incorrect shear pin, so it didn't break on time first time. So, you double sheared the pin and initiated the crack. Second time the table was somehow blocked, you had the correct shear pin but the crack needed only so much force to fully develop because the initial crack was already there.

    The Shear Pins I use are new from Franz Singer so I sincerely hope they are correct

    - Could it be that after the first incident you adjusted the gibs too tight? Then, if the crack was already there but invisible, it might not even have required binding the table to show, the resistance of the tight gib at the unworn portion of the travel could suffice.

    Just the opposite, as I suppected the gibs had been tight I deliberately backed them off a little.

    BR,
    Thanos
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Not sure i totally understand your scenario for the failure.
    If i read you correctly, you believe that taper pin that retains the end collar/helical milling attachment drive failed, and that allowed the lead screw to move further toward the operators side and that extra movement is what caused the cover to fracture....

    I think this is faulty logic i am afraid...That end bearing carries no end thrust in normal conditions. It is there only to support the screw, there should be no tension (axial) on the end collar. The purpose to that collar is to provide a coupling for drive gears used with the spiral milling attachment....
    The entire force to push/pull the table (X) right or left is fed through the thrust bearing (operators side end cover) into the operators end cover......Unlike the FP-NC's that leadscrew is not in tension between the end covers, it has thrust forces (in normal operation) only applied to the operators side end cover.....

    My suspicion is that the taper pin failed at the same time that the operators side cover was broken.....
    Table stopped moving, the screw continued to rotate, excess force applied to the operators side cover through the thrust bearing, resulting in the fracture. further the additional movement of the screw moving the additional distance of the fracture, then applied compression forces to the door side cover, and against the outside collar/bearing which is what caused the failure of the taper pin.....

    The pin failure is the result of the operators side cover being broken, not the other way around....

    I would restate my original opinion....Loose those brass shim plates.....Make new gibs,or remove the brass and bond Turcite/Rulon to the wear surfaces in place of the brass and finish scrape to match your slide ways getting
    the adjustment in normal range of the adjustment screws....

    Cheers Ross
    Hi Ross - thank you for your time and valued opinion, it is sincerely appreciated!

    I'm looking at sourcing Turcite at this time but currently can only finding US supplies and I know absolutely nothing about it's properties or fitting it - I guess Youtube will answer some questions!

    The last time I did a bit of scrapping was 30+ years ago so both your suggestions put me on a steep learning curve .. so expect more questions folks

    BTW .. can anyone answer the importance of the small M6 screw as shown in the last picture, my replacement end cap has not been drilled for one??

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi Dennis, yes I'm aware of the full purpose of the collar/taper pin ... what "Oddness" are you experiencing?

    John
    It's not relevant to your problem, just that it seems the previous owners covered up the old taper hole and made a new one further out, and now there is a space behind the clutch. If this assembly helps in keeping forces distributed between the two caps then doing that means that purpose is negated. I should probably turn a spacer for it. But if Ross is right, then this doesn't matter actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    ...

    The Shear Pins I use are new from Franz Singer so I sincerely hope they are correct
    ...
    Your shear pins are correct for sure, but can you say the same for the one that was on the machine? Be it loose gib, crash or whatever, the shear pin should break first.

    If the original shear pin was not proper, then the incident that caused the first shear pin to shear might have applied too much force on the parts and initiate the crack. So, even though you had the correct pin next, it only took a wee bit of force to break the cover, not enough to break the shear pin.

    Might be talking nonsense of course...

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi Ross - thank you for your time and valued opinion, it is sincerely appreciated!

    I'm looking at sourcing Turcite at this time but currently can only finding US supplies and I know absolutely nothing about it's properties or fitting it - I guess Youtube will answer some questions!

    The last time I did a bit of scrapping was 30+ years ago so both your suggestions put me on a steep learning curve .. so expect more questions folks

    BTW .. can anyone answer the importance of the small M6 screw as shown in the last picture, my replacement end cap has not been drilled for one??

    John
    John:
    I have used "Rulon 142" for lining slides. My local source is "Tri-Star Plastics.

    Rulon 142 | Linear Bearings and Slides | TriStar Plastics

    Rulon was recommended to me by Richard King who posts here on the rebuilding forum...very experienced scraper hand who teaches classed on scraping. He does not use "Turcite" as it has become difficult to
    obtain....

    Would contact some of the machine re-builders like Singer for a source for slide lining materials....
    You will need the material and a glue kit to do the application. (special epoxy, believe it contains fillers to help level the applied material)

    Scraping is relatively easy. I draw scrape the Rulon and pushing just makes the blade digs in too much (material is relatively soft)
    It cam be ground with accuracy, and milled quite close on size.
    Sort of fun to work with....
    I have some postings here on doing the gibs on my FP3NC....



    On a different note,been some time since i have had that apart, but don't believe my first gen FP2 has the M6 bolt fitted in the end cover....Not sure what its function would be. The table travel should be
    limited in overall travel by the fixed travel stops that are doweled to the slide.....Any additional limits would seem to be in opposition to those stops....I would remove that bolt unless you can see a real need for it.

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    Hi Ross - thank you for your time and valued opinion, it is sincerely appreciated!

    I'm looking at sourcing Turcite at this time but currently can only finding US supplies and I know absolutely nothing about it's properties or fitting it - I guess Youtube will answer some questions!

    The last time I did a bit of scrapping was 30+ years ago so both your suggestions put me on a steep learning curve .. so expect more questions folks

    BTW .. can anyone answer the importance of the small M6 screw as shown in the last picture, my replacement end cap has not been drilled for one??

    John
    Hi John,

    It seems like you're getting to the bottom of it. As I've been following this, my thought kept going to a wedged gib. If you point me to the Turcite you need, I will get it and ship it to you. Just let me know. I'm always here for you my friend

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    Quote Originally Posted by DennisCA View Post
    It's not relevant to your problem, just that it seems the previous owners covered up the old taper hole and made a new one further out, and now there is a space behind the clutch. If this assembly helps in keeping forces distributed between the two caps then doing that means that purpose is negated. I should probably turn a spacer for it. But if Ross is right, then this doesn't matter actually.
    Sounds slightly strange - if you want the dims off my collar I'll send them over.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanvg View Post
    Your shear pins are correct for sure, but can you say the same for the one that was on the machine? Be it loose gib, crash or whatever, the shear pin should break first.

    If the original shear pin was not proper, then the incident that caused the first shear pin to shear might have applied too much force on the parts and initiate the crack. So, even though you had the correct pin next, it only took a wee bit of force to break the cover, not enough to break the shear pin.

    Might be talking nonsense of course...

    BR,
    Thanos
    Hi Thanos - Thank you for your input again.

    Well it a comment to ponder about although I can't sheck the original as it's gone in the scrap

    John


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