Deckel FP2 - No power to X/Y/Z axis plus oil leak seepage - Page 7
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  1. #121
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    Lots of seat time running a first generation FP2. Similar setup on the table having two original gibs....
    Only non factory mods are "One Shot" oil pump, and mechanical spindle brake....
    When sorted correctly these machines just run....
    She will come right and work well of that i am sure..
    Cheers Ross

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  3. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    I seem to remember you said the gibs are protruding somewhat far out of the saddle. When you drive from right to left, that'd have the effect of driving the gib out of the saddle - effectively to loosen it?

    ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! My exact reasoning too!

    How is the phosphor bronze strip attached to the upper gib? I wonder if perhaps it's let go of the lower gib, and is somehow bunching up and wedging the gib...

    The Phosphor Bronze strip has a brass screw at each end of the gib
    img_3063s.jpg

    Is it possible that the screws attaching the strips to the gib are interfering somehow?
    Definately needs more investigation Siggi

  4. #123
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    My question is the bronze tight against the real gib....
    Might be possible for the bronze to have stretched a bit and formed sort of a bulge between the screws if it was not bonded.
    That bulge might form a wedge as it gets flattened and pushed under contact. Sort of like running into a little hill that could eliminate clearance and make things too tight.

    Believe the change to Rulon and the elimination of the bronze strip will cure the jamming problems....

    Cheers Ross

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  6. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    [COLOR="#000080"]The Phosphor Bronze strip has a brass screw at each end of the gib
    So it's not e.g. glued to the gib along it's length? If so, I wonder if one or the other of the strips is crumpling or wrinkling up to cause the binding.

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    Hi Ross, Peter et all

    Withdrew the bottom gib this morning for inspection.

    Firstly - thanks to Peter for the tip on keeping the table locking bar in in place. I used a 300mm length of 20mm x 4mm plastic window trim to push the bottom gib out from the Op end and no issues

    The Phospher Bronze is glued to the gib and also screwed in place too so no bulging and the screw heads are at least flush if not just below the PB so no apparent issues there either. On withdrawal the gib was soaked in oil so again no lubrication issues.

    BUT ... in three places along the bottom edge there were three areas of roughness. The only way I can describe it would be to say a saw has been drawn across the gib / PB at an angle every 3mm. See pictures below.

    I have smoothed them out as they were rough and re-installed the bottom gib so I can use the mill.

    Finally I hope you're right about the Rulon Ross ... a PITA to purchase from the US and no European suppliers that I've found

    As ALWAYS ... comments please

    img_3112s.jpg img_3113s.jpg img_3114s.jpg

    ... and the "Chewed" edge areas ...

    img_3115s.jpg img_3128s.jpg

    John

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    You must have a foreign object of some description rattling around between the table and the chewed up gib. That would explain the random lockup behavior and the damage to the edge of the gib.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurasg View Post
    You must have a foreign object of some description rattling around between the table and the chewed up gib. That would explain the random lockup behavior and the damage to the edge of the gib.
    Well FOD certainly wouldn't help but the main chewed bit at the outer end shows very regular damage like the gib pressing down on a wood screw thread (and there are none of those inside )

    The chewed area around 60+mm / 2-1/2" is extremely uniform in it's signature ... a loose piece of FOD in the bottom of the gib would IMHO give random damage along the length of the gib .... BUT I'm NOT ruling anything out!

    Thinking aloud ... could the table locking cam do this over a period of time??

    John

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    The table locking cam ought to work against the lower gib only AFAIK and we're talking about the upper gib now right? And the cam would press against the side that did not have the brass on it.

    EDIT: Sorry I see you removed the lower gib now. Looks unevenly worn to me.

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    To me it seems that that gib does not fit
    The scraped area you see is lower ,does not bear
    Only the non scraped area you see bears againt the mating surface
    That thing needs to be scraped to fit better

    Peter

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    Hi Dennis - We're talking about the bottom / lower rail. But if the cam presses on the opposite side then that's not an offending item.

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    The damage on the gib is definitely not a function of the lock. The relationship between the gib and lock only changes if the gib is adjusted. Also the damage is on the bottom and the lock acuates on the top.

    Zooming in on the damage it looks like dots and a fairly even pattern. My guess is that gib was in a vise at some point and those are marks from the jaws.

    My concern would be the wear pattern. It definitely looks like heavy contact on the ends and just a narrow strip down the center like it isn't flat. I wonder if the would make the gib more prone to grab and force deeper than if it had full contact. More force per square inch due to the small contact patch.

    I would say getting the gibs properly relined is likely going to be the permanent fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 65AMC View Post
    Zooming in on the damage it looks like dots and a fairly even pattern. My guess is that gib was in a vise at some point and those are marks from the jaws. Possible

    My concern would be the wear pattern. It definitely looks like heavy contact on the ends and just a narrow strip down the center like it isn't flat. I wonder if the would make the gib more prone to grab and force deeper than if it had full contact. More force per square inch due to the small contact patch.

    I would say getting the gibs properly relined is likely going to be the permanent fix.
    ... and that is certainly on the cards. Having a few issues with Tristar Corp but now looking at several other supplier outlets too

    Your comments are appreciated and always welcomed - Thank you.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    To me it seems that that gib does not fit. The scraped area you see is lower ,does not bear.

    Only the non scraped area you see bears againt the mating surface. That thing needs to be scraped to fit better

    Peter
    Thanks for your input Peter - always appreciated

    John

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    Hi John,

    If it were mine I would pull out my scrapers (hand and power) and start knocking down that worn-smooth area. I would then blue it up, insert it, identify where it is hitting, and continue scraping until the fit is reasonable. This will get the gib to go farther in.

    I agree that using a plastic gib liner is a good idea. These eliminate stick-slip because as their coefficient of static friction is lower than their coefficient of dynamic friction. That's not the case for metal-on-metal bearing surfaces, where the coefficient of dynamic friction is lower than the static one.

    Nevertheless I think this also ought to work reasonably well with the bronze bearing surfaces -- IF they are properly fit. The bronze should scrape very nicely, so a couple of hours of work here might improve matters dramatically.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 12-16-2019 at 11:00 AM.

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    Also a properly sharpend file would work great on bronze No need for carbide

    Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi John,

    If it were mine I would pull out my scrapers (hand and power) and start knocking down that worn-smooth area. I would then blue it up, insert it, identify where it is hitting, and continue scraping until the fit is reasonable. This will get the gib to go farther in.

    I agree that using a plastic gib liner is a good idea. These eliminate stick-slip because as their coefficient of static friction is lower than their coefficient of dynamic friction. That's not the case for metal-on-metal bearing surfaces, where the coefficient of dynamic friction is lower than the static one.

    Nevertheless I think this also ought to work reasonably well with the bronze bearing surfaces -- IF they are properly fit. The bronze should scrape very nicely, so a couple of hours of work here might improve matters dramatically.

    Cheers, Bruce
    Hi Bruce - Thanks very much for your comments. Not got a power scraper and only ever done the max of an hour hand scraping but seen a few YouTube videos! I guess its going to be a bit of a learning curve!

    Just close to committing to TriStar Corp for Rulon142 and Epoxy

    May well use the Christmas holidays to work on the bronze for practice if nothing else as the Rulon won't be here until mid January.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter from Holland View Post
    Also a properly sharpend file would work great on bronze No need for carbide

    Peter
    Hi Peter ... Well I've certainly got a selection of new files.

    Thanks very much for your assistance.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey John View Post
    May well use the Christmas holidays to work on the bronze for practice if nothing else as the Rulon won't be here until mid January.
    The bronze is soft enough that it will cut well with a long-handled engineers steel scraper. You can sharpen that on a shop grinder, and hone (optional) with wooden disk on the grinder and honing compound.

  23. #139
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    Looks to me as a good fit on the existing gib might do to eliminate your problems. Me, i would still change the friction face to Rulon or Turcite. (they are very similar)
    Advantage will be reduced friction and ease of fitting (Rulon scrapes very easily)
    Sharpen your scraper with a 5* negative edge angle. I would invest in a good replaceable blade carbide scraper, it will see more use if you continue working on old iron....
    End should have a radius , the smaller the narrower your cut on the scraping stroke.

    I scrape Rulon using a draw stroke. For me pushing the scraper tends to dig in too much and becomes too aggressive.
    Nice thing about the Rulon is that if you get it horribly wrong, you can replace it and start over.
    I would spend some time scraping the bronze to hone your stroke and to make the existing gib into a good model for close machining of the Rulon covered gib.

    Here are some shots and a brief description of my technique doing a tapered gib with new Rulon on my FP3NC's vertical gib.
    First off i opted to run this job using the horizontal spindle. Several reasons: First off it made for an easy setup. Second, running horizontal eliminates the shift in position on the working surface due to weight shift
    of the table as it traverses. (all knee style mills have this issue)

    First off i grip a piece of material (MIC6 tooling plate) in the vise. The material is trammed to run parallel with the "X" axis. A surface cut is taken along the top edge using an end mill (swarf cut) to assure the edge is square
    to the machine spindle. The edge is drilled and tapped for tool makers buttons (2) and they are fitted.
    A light surfacing cut is taken on the face of the plate.
    Three holes are drilled on the plate . Two of these holes coincide with oil feed holes already in the gib, the third hole is added to equal out the spacing.



    Next the original gib is secured to the plate . I tapped the oil holes and added a third to the gib to agree with the fixture plate drillings. Bolts with jam nuts completed the setup.





    I now dialed in the original surface of the gib , using the rotary axis of the table to make the original surface true to the "X" axis...(plate is now angled)



    I also set the tool makers buttons so that they were also flat to the "X" axis at each end of the fixture.
    This will give a true datum if i need to remove the plate and return to this setup sometime later.
    axis



    More to follow
    Cheers Ross

  24. #140
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    With the original gib in place i carefully measured from the original surface to teh tool makers buttons and recorded the value




    With the original gib still in place, i cut the original Rulon off the face of the gib. Getting good fresh surface and having a somewhat rough finish to give a good base for the
    replacement surface glue.



    Now i removed the gib and glued the mew material to the freshly machined surface of the base gib.....


    The gib is returned to the fixture and secured with the bolts.
    It is surfaced to a thickness somewhat thicker than original,gauging off the tool makers buttons......

    Finally the oil grooving is machined .





    Gib ready for final fitting /scraping.....



    Cheers Ross


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