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  1. #1
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    Default Deckel FP2 questions.

    Hi all,

    Iím looking for some opinions on a machine that Iím thinking about purchasing.

    It is a Deckel FP2 Active, Square head. Spindle speeds up to 2500rpm serial number 2202-11203

    It is a bit rough but the price seems to match the condition.

    Known problems,

    Spindle motor only works in second speed. Motor looks to be the correct one but is a different color. Will ask the seller if he knows anything about it.

    Very loud noise from vertical spindle/Gears at higher speeds. It really becomes apparent at 630rpm and above. The noise is really rough/coarse, the seller says that it is in the vertical head gears before the bevel gears. I canít imaging what sort of state a spindle would have to be in to sound like that.
    From a parts book I can see 3 small gears used to raise the drive shaft center up to meet the bevels. If it is in these Iím assuming it wonít be to bad/expensive to replace? But anything else is going to be $$$$. Is there any common fault or failure point with this unit? i'm not able to see the machine myself so is there anything that is easy for the seller to check to confirm what is going on?

    Can any one tell me about the differences in vertical heads, specifically for swivelling the vertical head. Some have 4 bolts and some 6, (this one has 4) quite a few machines donít have the bolts at 3 and 9. I assume that these were added by Deckel on later machines to fix a problem?

    When was the chain drive to reposition the vertical head introduced? or was it just an option you could order?

    Y axis backlash is about 1 ľ turns! but X is less than a ľ turn. Z donít know. There has to be something else other than just wear to account for the Y axis?

    Apparently the feed motor driver trips after about an hour of constant operation. No further info available. All rapids and feeds seem to work fine.

    Active direction lights are all missing the yellow lens, no idea if the Active system is working or not.

    Table is completely full of holes from drilling, not just one or 2, a real Swiss cheese. The quil fine feed knob on the left of the vertical head has been used enough to wear off some of the black and the nearby green paint has been completely worn off. Seems like an expensive drill press.

    General condition from pictures is OK. Paint is not to bad, some chips around the head and most gone off the edge of the table. Nothing to suggest excessive abuse.
    No real rust.

    Any way, I would be interested in what people think of this and if you have any suggestions.

    Thanks for your time.

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    Pictures?

    Sounds like a machine full of problems and lack of maintenance.

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    Sad story....

    Regarding Y axis, if the configuration is anything like the older machines (which I think it is) then the screw is fixed at the back of the head with a taper pin and the nut is the one that rotates. Very often, taper pin has gone loose, or the bracket where that screw fits has gone loose, and there you have your extra motion.

    Would love a squarehead Deckel myself, but I am not sure I would go for that one, unless time is not an issue.

    BR,
    Thanos

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    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply.

    Harri89,
    Completely agree. will try and get some pictures up this week.

    Thanos,
    Going from the parts book it looks to be similar, except no taper pin. the screw has a keyway at the end and a couple of lock nuts. everything else is the same general layout. there seems to be allot of places where a bit of extra backlash could be introduced. I think this might be the case as opposed to screw/nut wear because of the much lower backlash in the X axis. also 1 1/4 turns on the hand wheel is about 3mm, not sure on the gear ratio of the handle to screw but it still seems far to much wear for what is probably a 2.5mm pitch screw. dose anyone know the rear ratio? or screw pitch?
    It is a bit of a project machine, not sure I can afford one that dosent need some work! this will be for my home shop and naturally won't be seeing a huge amount of use compared to a machine in commercial use. I hope to be able to either fix or work around its bugs.

    Thanks.

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    regarding the Y axis, I'm not sure how exactly it is done on Deckels, but on my USSR clone of the FP1, the rotating nut is held in between 2 thrust washers, clearance is controlled by a nut and a second nut is there to lock the 2 together, and when I got my machine, one of the washers wasn't there, so the backlash was quite extreme, took the mechanism apart, made new bronze washers, assembled, adjusted the clearance and it solved that problem

    from the sound of things, unless the price is really attractive, I'd pass on that machine, unless you have source for another vertical head... chances are, if the gears are so beat up, the bearings in the spindle might be gone as well, and if it was a drill press, I'd at least check how the fit is between the quill and the head, how the quill lock feels and so on

    I wouldn't worry about the table at all, at least here in Europe, the 90 degree fixed ones can be found for 300-500EUR, add another 1-1,5k and you can start looking for the universal one

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    Hi jz79,

    The backlash adjustment seems to be done with a pressure plate and 3 cap screws + grub screws, easy to check and easy to be wrong. All my knowledge on this specific machine comes from a parts manual and reading online, so may be completely wrong.
    I would like to be able to check the items you mention, but unfortunately I'm not able to see this machine in person and the seller takes a week+ to reply to emails....
    If the vertical head is in-fact dead then I guess the machine is only good for parts. Finding a replacement vertical head will be almost impossible and for sure costs to much for me.

    Agree on the replacement tables, I have already spoken to a dealer about that. I was more mentioning it to give an indication of the use it has had.

    Regards,

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    The noisy vertical head is not uncommon on this model of square head FP2.
    The seller is likely to be correct about the three transfer gears that bring the drive up to the vertical spindle bevel gearing.
    Had a similar vintage machine that was quite noisy.
    Replaced the gears (Singer has a nice replacement set) and the vertical noise became significantly quieter. ..Added a lubrication feature to apply oil to the gear set to prolong their life as well.

    Think the chain driven slide movement came with the later 2 motor machines.
    The table could be repaired via a piece to "Jig Plate" (Mic6) that is ground aluminum plate. a piece drilled and tapped in a geometric pattern to provide a hold down grid attached over the original surface will
    cure the existing machine "Idiot Rash"

    1 1/4 turns is pretty excessive...Not sure a nut that had 1 1/4 turns of play would still move the screw. I would be looking for additional culprits.
    Your evaluation of the thrust adjustment on the "Y" nut is correct. Adjustment screws working in opposition to the retaining hardware.
    From memory, think the "Y" screws on the inch version machines are 6 1/4tpi.
    There exists a reduction gearing between the hand wheel and the nut. (1.6:1)

    To me unless there were portions of the machine missing or something major broken (slide or gearing)
    I would be very prone to buying this machine...The "Aktive" machines are the most desirable, and sounds like a bit of work and you could have a nice little machine.
    Would depend on price in the end. Look at the net, those machines can bring a good price if running.

    Would guess that the running only in high range is a problem with switches or a contactor...relative simple stuff....
    As to the feed dropping out....likely its the power supply...maybe capacitors going south.

    Can you post photos of the machine....
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. I almost never post on PM but have lurked here for years and am an avid reader of your posts.

    I came across a thread started by Peter regarding a noisy FP3 that he had, I think you were commenting on it as well? looks to be a very similar setup with the 3 gears. Cured by gear replacement. not cheap but a relativity simple job. With the noise that they are making it is impossible to tell if anything else sounds off. A bit surprised that the luib system in this area isn't better.
    Do you know when the vertical head bolt change happened? The parts book i have shows a 6 bolt head and is specific to machines with an earlier S/N than this machine. Makes me wonder if it is the original head.

    Hiding the table under a fixture plate is an option, but i think it would always bug me. regardless i will have to order some items from Europe so would probably get a tilting/swivel table at the same time. the cheese table kept out of site until it was really needed for a job.

    Thanks for the confirmation on the Y adjustment, it now makes perfect sense. I originally thought that the cap and grub screws were in the same holes and would be a PITA to adjust through trial and error.I have worked with systems like that before(large marine equipment) and they can be so frustrating to adjust.
    The 1 1/4 turns can't all be from wear. 2.5mm per hand wheel turn, so about 3mm of lost movement with a 4mm pitch screw.

    Not to worried about the electrical side, well the spindle drive any way. As you say it is just basic electrics. The feed drive is a bit more difficult, if there is nothing obvious to the eye or basic tests, then i will have to send it off for reconditioning. Not a show stopper. Seller has stated that it has need to be reset, but it takes quite a workout to get it to trip.

    The whole machine is a gamble, but so are most. Even though this is a newer Deckel it is still nearly 40 years old and will have passed through many hands in that time.

    Regards.

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    55.jpg930_deckel-fp-2-sn2202-11359-1-.jpg

    First time trying to attach a picture.......

    Should be the 4 and 6 bolt heads, just to try and make clear what i was on about in the above post.

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    2202-200_7.jpg

    Can anyone enlighten me as to what these holes are for?

    Thanks.

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    Can't answer your question about the hole and plug, but i suspect its there to cover access to a service point...that is likely that there is a set screw behind that plug
    to secure the bearing for the lower long shaft in the upper casting....Just a guess mind you, but its the way Deckel did this kind of thing...

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    You are most likely correct. although it docent seem to be on every machine of the same MK. time will tell.

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    So I finally have some pictures! A bit of a random collection.

    horozontal-spindle.jpgvert-spindle.jpgphoto-2019-10-28-12-01-49_1.jpgphoto-2019-10-28-12-01-50.jpg

    It looks like some mods have been done to the feeds drive? I don't think the 2 wires going to the top of the board are original, but haven't been able to find any info online.
    more pictures to follow.

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    x-1.jpgx-2.jpgy-back-1.jpgy-back-2.jpgy-front-1.jpg

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    y-front-2.jpg

    Thats all the pictures at the moment.it looks like the cap screws holding the Y nut are not all at the same depth, possibly loose?

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    Well thanks to all for your help, today I pressed ahead and bought the machine. A bit nervous due to the issues I have previously mentioned. when I have the machine in my hands I will start a new thread..... or I will list the bits of my junk machine in the for sale section �� only time will tell what I have actually bought.

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    The nut on the Y-axe is locked up by 2 needle thrust bearings
    These are bad in general
    Especialy the deepest one as it rides on a surface with a seam


    Peter

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    Hi Peter,

    Yes, I expect that replacement of those bearings and some sympathetic adjustments and most of the Y axis problems will be gone.... fingers crossed. If not, want to buy a parts machine?

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    A couple more pictures, I know everyone loves pictures.b4b220d8-f1b8-4451-baab-7f7c20a80e07.jpg41feec11-b2f6-4baa-8ac5-b383b5ca32bf.jpg

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    The 3 gears cost about €620 and it is worth it
    The design on this part is a bit poor IMHO
    Why needle bearings everywhere


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