Deckel FP3 No manual up/down

Peter from Holland · Feb 18, 2019

We bought a nice Deckel FP3 in the North of France in December last year
It took a while to get it here but when it arrived we were very pleased with it at first
It was one of the later ones with only a single motor Identical like on the active FP3
Typicly the Z handwheel on these is not at a angle but vertical

While cleaning we noticed the Z axe did not move up or down manualy WTH
The powerfeeds and rapids did work though
So we took of the casting directly behind the handwheel

Nothing wrong there When we turned the little wheel further up the geartrain the saddle did not lower or rise

Well Things got worse We had to remove the saddle from the main body
Got the scales on the Y removeded Also the trip dogs and the scrapers on the Y and Z Then turned the Y all the way back Spindle out of the nut and a bit more by hand
Turned the angle head 90 dgr and slide it all back
Then loosened the back gibs a bit and removed the tapered gib
The bolts that held the Z-axe spindle nut were removed (That works better as turning the saddle all up out of the nut of the feed spindle )
Here you see it lifted up

We removed the cover and there it was
The shaft holding the bevel gear broke off :angry:

On the drawing its shaft 2201-2220

We see if we can get that shaft out tomorrow
Anybody done that before ??

sneebot · Feb 18, 2019

Peter,
I have the exact same vintage machine as this one-- with the Y-axis hand wheel coming straight out of the saddle versus the earlier machines that have it at an angle. When I received the machine there were some notes about and a quote request for this same part. Additionally there was a drawing as I believe they ended up machining the part themselves.

No help for your query, but an interesting side note...

On edit-- actually my machine is slightly different (besides being grey); it has three buttons in the on/ off button location. On/off and emergency stop (all original).

Peter from Holland · Feb 18, 2019

So it seems it happens more
Is there a way to make that shaft less proun to break
I would use a decent steel for it But I think Deckel did too
Perhaps relocate the keyway away from the shoulder

According the drawing there is little room for a radius in that shoulder

AlfaGTA · Feb 18, 2019

Have made changes to the rear stub axles on AC Bristol's that had failures at the key way , sort of like that....
Used a key seat style key cutter that we sharpened with a radius on the corners .
Made my own keys by turning a round puck with the radius on the corners then cut off one side to give the half round profile...
Worked for that application pretty well.

Cheers Ross

sneebot · Feb 18, 2019

I can certainly scan the drawings of the part I have if you like-- but they were made by the previous owner so I cannot verify their accuracy.

TNB · Feb 18, 2019

On the cut-off view the broken shaft offers, the keyway slot looks rather deep to me relatively to the diameter.
May be it would be possible to make it a little shallower without compromising the flanks ?

On my machine (FP3 aktiv), I've always found the z movement to be a little tight on the handwheel.

I already dismantled the saddle once for that reason, and found the thrust roller bearing that supports the leadscrew to be lightly brinneled.

Very lightly, but enough to let you feel the "notches" when cranking the handwheel extremely slowly.

I replaced it and indeed, things got a little better but not to the point that I could be totally happy with it...

When cranking up the handwheel and nearing a given value on the dial, I can feel and see a minor amount of "flex" in the leadscrew drivetrain which, I have to admit, is a little annoying.

Of course, I did the usual checkings such as ways lubing, gib setting and back plates tightening.
Problem is the problem is *minor*, but the efforts required to dismantle the saddle are *major* (esp. in my cramped shop with limited lifting capability) so to date, the complementary investigations required to fix it have stayed in the "oh well" category of projects... :rolleyes5:

Peter from Holland · Feb 19, 2019

I plan to move the keyway away from the shoulder
I think that will make it a bit stronger Can someone verify that ??
Also a bit shallower perhaps
I plan to use pre hardened material-number 17225 (42CrMo4) or even 16582(34Cr NiMo6) if I can get hold of it

The bevel gear is situated all in the back of that hole behind the clutches
Now to get the shaft out I hope it is a cassette of some kind that slides out with bearings and all
I dont want to get those clutches out too :willy_nilly:

BTW It took me less then 2 hours to remove the saddle

Peter

Peter from Holland · Feb 19, 2019

So It turned out removing the saddle was the eay part :scratchchin:

Those dammned tapered pins Deckel uses everywhere

I made some pictures Tell you all about it on a later day

AlfaGTA · Feb 19, 2019

Same vintage FP3 here, having the straight out Vertical hand wheel...Mine however i believe is slightly newer having the same 3 button setup on the machine as Matt....
No issues here with the "Z" as far as i know.....Feels a bit heavy to move, but i think that is just the nature of the machine.
Cheers Ross

ballen · Feb 19, 2019

Peter, thanks for taking the time to document this. From what Matt has written, it seems that you are not the first person who has had this problem!

42CrMo4 is nice material, I think it's a good choice here.

BTW I'm impressed that you had the saddle off in 2 hours. That's one difference between a pro like you and a hobbyist like me.

rklopp · Feb 19, 2019

It looks like that bevel gear is overhung from the bearing by quite a distance. That can't help the situation. On the one hand, the M6 screw in the end appears to apply additional tensile stress to the location that broke, but on the other hand, the M6 screw helps the sleeve between the bevel gear and bearing take up the bending load. Can you tell now after the failure whether the M6 screw was tight at the time?

bentley1930 · Feb 21, 2019

Peter from Holland said:
We bought a nice Deckel FP3 in the North of France in December last year
It took a while to get it here but when it arrived we were very pleased with it at first
It was one of the later ones with only a single motor Identical like on the active FP3

Hi Deckeleers,

Peter, I would strongly advise you not to use rubber straps when lifting!

Alan

Peter from Holland · Feb 21, 2019

rklopp said:
It looks like that bevel gear is overhung from the bearing by quite a distance. That can't help the situation. On the one hand, the M6 screw in the end appears to apply additional tensile stress to the location that broke, but on the other hand, the M6 screw helps the sleeve between the bevel gear and bearing take up the bending load. Can you tell now after the failure whether the M6 screw was tight at the time?

The end of the bevel gear pushes against the inner race of that bearing by means of that M6 bolt The end of that bevel gear has a chamber in it like you can see in the last but one picture of my post 1 That leaves pleenty of space for a decent radius in that corner Thats how I made the replacement

some parts are a mistory to me Part 2201-2228 and 2201-2229 Whats it use There is a keyway in 2201-2229 Whats the use of those 2 parts ??? :willy_nilly:

TNB · Feb 21, 2019

Peter from Holland said:
some parts are a mistory to me Part 2201-2228 and 2201-2229 Whats it use There is a keyway in 2201-2229 Whats the use of those 2 parts ???

After asking myself at first, I decided those parts were probably here to set the axial position of the shaft assembly somehow, thus the bevel gear...
That's just a guess of course, but I could not figure out any other realistic option.

AlfaGTA · Feb 21, 2019

bentley1930 said:
Hi Deckeleers,

Peter, I would strongly advise you not to use rubber straps when lifting!

Alan

Rubber?????? Looks like nylon web slings to my eye, or linear strand nylon or polyester ("round sling")covered with a sheath....Used all the time by professional riggers...Very strong and flexible desired where chains and cables would damage the parts....
Only restriction is that they have a life span and should to be replaced on a schedule. Usually have a sewn no tag with the date of manufacture and their lifting capacity....

Cheers Ross

Peter from Holland · Feb 21, 2019

There is more to it

The part with the smallest diam of Item 2201-2188 is protruting the bore that these bushings are in
Item 2201-2188 is the clamp for clamping the Z-axe :willy_nilly:

Peter

Peter from Holland · Feb 21, 2019

And then the shaft 2201-2185 is sticking in that hole of that clamp 2201-2188 :willy_nilly:

Peter

AlfaGTA · Feb 21, 2019

Just wondering as i can't remember here how all this fits together...But is it possible that the spacer 2228 is there to fill the larger bore in the casting.
The bore being larger there as an aide to assembly of the other components....
Cheers Ross

Peter from Holland · Feb 21, 2019

That might be it. If so the bearing should fit inside that spacer. I check tomorrow
But it has a smaller diam on the front Why that then
Still wondering why 2185 sticks inside the hole in the clamp for the Z (2188)
And why it has a spring

Peter

AlfaGTA · Feb 21, 2019

Doesn't that all relate to the feed interlock? On the FP3 and later machines Deckel added the feature of having the power feed interlocked with the clamp for an axis (X, & Z) so that
you can't engage the feed when the slide is locked...Earlier machines (single motor FP2 for example don't have this feature...and the clamp is much simpler....Looks to me as though the spring is there
to keep the clamp from dragging on the slide ways when the clamp is released...

Cheers Ross

Deckel FP3 No manual up/down

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