Deckel FP3 universal

O.k. Help me out. I'm an old american iron user. I'm about to pick up this deckel, and know nothing about them. Where does the z axis movement come in? Seller says table (knee) does not move. I'm not seeing column adjustment. Is this a fixed height machine? Am I just stooopid? Will Lassie get help, to get lil timmaaaay out of the well?




Haven't visited her in person, but she seems like a very large, very stout gurl.

yes, it has "Z" axis movement.

Yes has a Z handwheel bottom right (looking from the front) and the power feeds are probably on a joystick round the back of the Xaxis.

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Deckels are defined as though they were straight vertical mills even though they have a horizontal spindle as well as the vertical.

Has vertical travel on the coloum (main casting) this would be your "Z"

If its an FP3 then it will also have a quill on the vertical head, sort of like a Bridgeport...but with less travel

The cross travel is not by moving the table (might be where the confusion with the seller comes in) The cross travel (Y) is via a slide that sits atop the main casting and that slide
carries the horizontal spindle and the upper vertical head casting.....

The long feed (X)is as you would expect moving right or left like a conventional knee mill.

FP3 will have power feed to all three axis (X,Y & Z) plus rapids to all three. Built in using a gear box (early versions) or a separate power feed motor (late series)
Spindle is powered via a separate gear box for both late and early versions....
All use #40 taper tooling , but with a specific draw bar....(metric 20x2.0mm buttress thread)

Very desirable machine for those who appreciate this design.....Rigid for its size, and accurate in not overly worn.
Post photos here when you get her and we can tell you more...
Lots of info here , don't be hesitant to ask any questions

Cheers Ross

I know this is asking a loaded question, in a biased forum, but. Between a 5 h.p. K&T 2CH (not universal) with universal vertical head (50 taper hori, 40 taper vert), and this deckel, both have a comparable amount of tooling, same-ish price point, what is the better machine?
I have a 2H universal, which I love, so....


And how hard is it to source (are they even made?) arbor supports for the FP3?


I also did some homework, and saw video of how the machine works. Very interesting! I imagine I'm gonna scrap some stuff at first.

Depends on the type and size of work you do, all around general machining and tool work, the Deckel, I have had mine since 87, use it making tools and plastic molds, have most of the accessories,tilting table, slotting head, index head, high speed head ect.

As "RK" says depends on the work you need to run...
If you need a machine to slab large amounts of material. plain and stagger tooth cutters running horizontal, then the KT with its 50 horizontal spindle will
be your best choice.

Deckel's were designed and built in the European mode of making a base machine do lots of functions, where here (US) the idea was to have a dedicated machine for each operation...
That KT is a prefect example. Great horizontal machine, best suited to run horizontal arbors etc. But not a very good vertical machine lacking a real sensitive quill and rigidity in the vertical.

By contrast, that FP3 does both horizontal and vertical and both pretty well. Has a sensitive quill on both spindles and was designed from the ground up to incorporate a real vertical spindle, not a bolt on.
The Deckel line is well supported with a breadth of accessories that fit across all the machine model lines (FP2,FP3 manuals) as well as the FP-NC machines (CNC)

The design has some rigidity advantages having just two moving elements on the vertical slide (knee) as opposed to the three sliding elements on a more conventional knee mill (Your KT)
The moving "Y" slide works similar to a horizontal boring mill and makes horizontal work like boring and drilling easier than a knee mill.

The Deckel design is more adaptable than your KT....Having a removable work table allowes working on long irrigular parts by clamping to the vertical table (X slide)


That FP3 will require some adjustment to your working techniques...controls are for the most part to the side of the long axis so your setups may well be different from what you are used to....Takes a bit of adjustment, but
works fine once you put your head to it...
Tooling will require some additional changes. Normal setup is to run direct fitting #40 collets. Originals have male threads for the draw bar (20x2.0 buttress)
You can run CAT 0r BT 40 tool holders if you make adapters for the draw bar or change the draw bar to fit the holders you decide to run.
Also be aware that the table "T" slots will be different from your KT. Believe that machine runs 5/8 slots where the Deckel will have 12mm slots. (Bridgeport "T" nuts can be modified to fit by hard milling the sides of the T)

As to overarm for that FP3, yes there are sources!
Frantz Singer in Germany has lots of parts and accessories for these machines, but be advised he does not give anything away....I gladly pay his rate as i want him to stay in business supporting these older machines!
FPS is another source in Germany.

Cheers Ross

Well, shit. Much like my choice of sports cars, looks like I'm going euro.

Ross, I'm going to need your home address, as I'm gonna need someone to blame......

So, opinions?

He says it needs some sort of stop/trip pin with a shoulder? Not like I can't make it (right???? RIGHT?) I believe he said it's a limit switch pin or something.

Anything I should tuck my balls up and run from? Like, scary, oh shit, stay away from shit?

Thanks for all the help,

Pat

Well, that’s an LK. Different breed of cat. Nice machine though.


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That’s not an LK, it’s a FP3L. Very versatile mill, but a pita to move and set up. Heavier than they look. Seller is correct, table doesn’t move, the whole column does the x axis. Wouldn’t get one as only mill in a shop, but nice to have. (Yup, I’ve got one)

I’d want to run it thru its travels, feeds and spindle speeds before buying.

Make sure you get whatever tooling and accessories that goes with the machine. Bonus would be if it has the optional all angle tablein addition to the fixed table you show.

If you get it be warned they are a little tippy, and want to be bolted to a good concrete floor.

Post more pics if you can.

L7

Yes, FP3L.
Bit different from the description i gave above....
Here the table is fixed in the vertical...sort of a bed mill.
The vertical is accomplished via moving the entire vertical casting up or down gearboxes, drive motor et all...
"X" axis is also accomplished by moving the entire vertical casting.
Designed for heavier ,larger parts....Nice if your stuff is big, not as convenient for small sensitive work IMO...
Will make moving the vertical feel heavier than the standard FP3.
If it has lots of hours on the machine wear on vertical casting may cause the "Y" to sag.
All else i have described above applies.

Heavier machine, as Lucky says bit more difficult to move.
Vertical head same as standard FP3.

Cheers Ross

Ross, as usual, put it nicely.

For comparison, I’ve had a bunch of time on a #3 K&T horizontal with a vertical head. Roughly comparable work piece capacity. I’d say the FP3L is a little easier to dance with, but similar amount of effort overall. The Deckel is not as beefy tho, and wouldn’t take as heavy cuts.

If the OP wants, it’s easy to slide the standard vertical head back and mount any FP2 head on an FP3L. FP1 heads won’t work.

To answer your question about making an arbor support, thats an easy job on the FP3L. It has horizontal quil with more than enough travel.

For small jobs, give me a Bport any day.

Just my opinion.

L7

lucky7 said:

That’s not an LK, it’s a FP3L.

L7

Click to expand...

Correct, my error. I knew there was an L involved. Thanks.


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Daaaaamnit boys, you were supposed to make this easier.....

Real quick. I have a round ram bridgeport j head, an index 745, a gorton 9j, and one of the solid casting bridgeport series 1 interact cnc. (same casting as a boss series). Horizontal wise, I have a K&T 2H universal, and a B&S #2 light universal.

I don't really need another machine, buuuuut, I really want a heavier vertical capability.

I won't get into turning capability, cuz, I got that covered.

I was thinking that The K&T universal vert. head, on a standard mill, would give me some weird added boring capabilities, along with some vertical hogging ability. Hence, the Deckel.

Please continue.... I'm learning a lot. And fuck me, but I may just buy both machines.

woodsrider845 said:

Please continue.... I'm learning a lot. And fuck me, but I may just buy both machines.

Click to expand...

Problem solved!

You could probably ditch the round ram BP.



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That would free up some real estate... Oh, yes. Yes, it would.

I find the bridgeport comes in handy, as does any "duplicate" machine, for when you have job set up in another machine, and money walks in the door, for a "doo eeet now" job.

Is no one here going to talk me out of this european crazed, old american iron added, poor decision?

From that solitary picture, assuming the machine is solid, what's it worth?

woodsrider845 said:

Is no one here going to talk me out of this european crazed, old american iron added, poor decision?

Click to expand...

Cheez , you came to the "Deckel" forum....any expectation that those here would pan that machine are to say the least optimistic.....
To be honest, me i would not buy the FP3L simply because it does not fill my needs and i don't have the real estate to park it for the occasional job that my other Deckels (FP2, FP3 Fp4NC (2) and FP3NC can't
already handle..If i was going in that direction i would look for an FP42NC .But if you need big and heavy parts machining then by all means that is a nice and prudent option....

Cheers Ross