What's new
What's new

Deckel FP4MK 1984

Dion Marriott

Plastic
Joined
Jan 14, 2016
Hi all,

This is my first post so please be gentle.

I was looking for a Deckel FP1 (or similar) for a home workshop. I live in Australia where such machines are rare, and machines in ok condition are rarer still.

By accident I came across a Deckel FP4MK milling machine for sale. It was manufactured in 1984 but it appears to be very good condition. The hand scraping is missing from the vertical ways (still noticeable right at the bottom below the table) but this is the only indication that is has done any work. The axes are tight but smooth over the whole travel. The machine runs nearly silent (except in rapid traverse mode).

There are no attachments and it has a fixed table (unfortunately). It has "point to point" control and a hydraulic tool holder.

I don't know much about this machine except that it is big and weighs about 1800kg, but it is a Deckel and very pretty. So, being rather desperate and possibly capricious I have put down a deposit and now need to work out how to move it and somewhere to put it.

So first, where can I buy a manual that'll show me how to correctly move it and how use it and properly maintain it?

And second, before I hand over the remaining money, are there any known problems that I ought to check for?

It is a bit big for model making but for the reasons above I have to take what I can get.

Regards,

Dion
 
Hi Peter, thanks for the advice.

The price is 20,000 AUD (about 12.400 EUR). Options are quite limited in Australia and exotic items are more expensive here. My biggest concerns are that it is big (compared to say a FP1) and it is a machine only, and getting spare and accessories may be a challenge.

On the plus side, the machine looks very clean and there are no signs of abuse, nor much work done. Also it is local (about 20km from my house), which is great because transport is normally a big factor.

Dion
 
If it says Deckel on the nameplate for that kind of money I would buy it If it was somewhere in Europe anyhow
Deckel is one of the few machines of that age you can still get parts of quit easy Oke You have to import them from Germany But if you buy from Franz Singer not much of a deal
Parts are expencive according some But this was a very expensive machine when new

Peter
 
Down in Melbourne? Would have thought 84 is early for an MK, how did you determine the date - only place I've seen date stamps on ones delivered here is on interior side panels.

Weight should be around 1500kg without the transformer. Lifting is via the hole in the main column (should be a black cover about 50mm OD each side you pop out - if not missing) adjusting the Y ram to balance. You must block the table with timber underneath to stop pounding the crap out of the Z axis and gibs with a 170kg table hanging in space!

Martin(?) did upload the manual here some years ago......would be a pretty big file, as the original manual is about 1" thick. Singer sells them too, I've got a spare one here somewhere, but no guarantee of finding it in any sort of timeframe.

Only real problem here, has been intermittent feeds - resets turning machine on and off - somehow.
 
To clarify, it doesn’t have a point to point control, but rather an “Activ” DRO....which is nothing more than an electronic stop dog.
 
Hi BillE

Thanks for the really great information.

In truth the date was specified by the seller. I assumed it was correct but I will confirm.

The SN seems too low for an MK but the nameplate clearly states that it's a MK. I am slightly concerned about this but I think it's just a very early instance.

I will look out for the lifting hole.
Would it be better to remove the table prior to moving the machine? Or does that unbalance the machine?

You have given me another concern. If it has been incorrectly moved previously, would the damage to the z axis be evident without disassembling the machine? I could not determine any issue except for the lack of scrape marks on the vertical ways (still visible right at the bottom).

The seller is the second owner and knows about as much as I do. He has a fp4m and this one that he bought from the original owner. He states that they only use the M because it has a universal table, and that the MK has just been used a few times.

I am starting from a point of almost complete ignorance so any advice will be readily absorbed and much appreciated.

Best regards Dion



Down in Melbourne? Would have thought 84 is early for an MK, how did you determine the date - only place I've seen date stamps on ones delivered here is on interior side panels.

Weight should be around 1500kg without the transformer. Lifting is via the hole in the main column (should be a black cover about 50mm OD each side you pop out - if not missing) adjusting the Y ram to balance. You must block the table with timber underneath to stop pounding the crap out of the Z axis and gibs with a 170kg table hanging in space!

Martin(?) did upload the manual here some years ago......would be a pretty big file, as the original manual is about 1" thick. Singer sells them too, I've got a spare one here somewhere, but no guarantee of finding it in any sort of timeframe.

Only real problem here, has been intermittent feeds - resets turning machine on and off - somehow.
 
Dion, yeah sounds like Shaun(sp?) who posted on here some years back, he had both those machines. Remember he was offering one or the other for sale more recently.

If it's got MK on that data plate opposite the operator side of the machine, definitely one!

The manual shows Deckel transported the machines in a wooden box with the table attached. If it's good enough for them, I'd just remove the 4 M6 SHCS that attach the swarf pan to the machine and block the table.......maybe if I was travelling over hundreds of km of corrugated dirt road, I might consider it. The lifting hole is below the emergency stop.

Can't say I've noticed any scrape marks here on the Z, even when all the paint was totally intact from near zero use, maybe some rectification at the factory? Sales blurb attached suggests the vertical was just ground too.

I'll have a dig around on the weekend to see if I can come across the various bits of paperwork.....looks like Martin P's dialog5 site is down/hacked.

Bill
 

Attachments

  • img032.jpg
    img032.jpg
    99.5 KB · Views: 136
  • img033.jpg
    img033.jpg
    92.8 KB · Views: 155
Biggest easily identified differences between the FP4MK and the FP4M are:

1 Hydraulic tool change setup (FP4MK) as with the FP-NC's

2. the FP4MK has an individual DC drive "servo" style feed motor providing infinite rates within its working range (turn a knob to change rate)
The FP4M uses a gearbox with manually selected discrete ratios.....

I am sure there are exceptions, but in general, Deckel did not scrape their vertical box ways...Faces and edges ground, sliding elements scraped to fit.

Cheers Ross
 
Everything is possible But with only 1 feedmotor 1 drive and manually engaging every feed every time it will be a expencive task
Plus unless he changed out the standard screws for ball screws and a servo for each axis I don't see the point anyway...especially when one could buy a late FP4NC that is already CNC for typically way less money (but perhaps not in Australia)
 
Hi Ross,

Thanks for the info. This one definitely has those features so it must be a MK.

I am sure you are right about the scraping.

Cheers Dion
 
I saw the FP4MK for sale. It’s quite a bit different from your intended FP1. I have seen quite a few FP1s come up. They usually go for well under 5k. I’ve seen some sit for months unsold. There was an FP3 for sale semi recently. They wanted 10k. It looked nice but sat for months on the market. Not sure if it eventually sold.

Do you have 3 phase power connected? I would not even consider mutilating the FP4 with cnc gear. For 20k you are getting close to a decent second hand Haas. It’s a buyers market for them.
 
...especially when one could buy a late FP4NC that is already CNC for typically way less money (but perhaps not in Australia)

Not common in Oz. Most "deckels" you'd see would be DMU. Seen a few 3s.....from memory, using dialog 11, there were a couple of dead 5s a few years back and some MAs too - if you were really desperate!

v22 said:
I saw the FP4MK for sale. It’s quite a bit different from your intended FP1. I have seen quite a few FP1s come up. They usually go for well under 5k. I’ve seen some sit for months unsold. There was an FP3 for sale semi recently. They wanted 10k. It looked nice but sat for months on the market. Not sure if it eventually sold.

You'd think private sale would be more expensive than auction rather than the reverse. Common auction price I've seen for a 1 runs around 7 to 8, non SK40, unless there's accessories included - once GST and buyer premium kicks in. Doesn't seem to be any huge distinction between capabilities of the various sizes reflected in the price either, 3s, 33s and old large 4s are nearly the same, but guess a 1 is more convenient for a back shed and pushes the market up. I've seen a couple of earlier 4Ms come up over the last few years, low to mid teens seem to be the rule there, so there is a price premium.
 
Hi V22,

Yes it is a bit bigger that what I was looking for. However, Deckels are not as common here in Australia as they are in Europe or possibly even the US. I have to take what I can get.

The FP1s I have seen for sale until now date from the around 60's and are beaten up.

The price seems fair considering the condition of the machine. I do wish there were some attachments included as I can see these being fairly pricey.

Regards, Dion

I saw the FP4MK for sale. It’s quite a bit different from your intended FP1. I have seen quite a few FP1s come up. They usually go for well under 5k. I’ve seen some sit for months unsold. There was an FP3 for sale semi recently. They wanted 10k. It looked nice but sat for months on the market. Not sure if it eventually sold.

Do you have 3 phase power connected? I would not even consider mutilating the FP4 with cnc gear. For 20k you are getting close to a decent second hand Haas. It’s a buyers market for them.
 
€12500 is a more then reasenable price IMHO
Spares are still available new and for a fair price
Especially if you compare it to Schaublin or Mikron prices
Singer who deals in Deckel parts ships worldwide
Accessories??
You can use standard accessories like tool holders turntables dividing heads on the machine
What more do you need

Peter
 
Dion:
Hoping that you are not still kicking the tires on this machine.....
Only reason i can see for not snapping it up and already posting photos of the machine at your place is that
it is too large to fit into your shop.....

That machine will kick the crap out of any FP1.....And might be considered by some as the ultimate manual mill..
I reserve that title to a machine that has a sensitive quill on the horizontal...something the FP4MK does not have, but
then neither does an FP1.....

The power drawbar is reason enough...a feature you will fall in love with if you do any work that requires multiple
tool changes..
Believe you can use CAT or BT40 tooling with the appropriate pull studs...Makes tooling the machin3e easier than
a conventional Deckel having the 20X2.0 Buttress drawbar....

This is a perfect example where "You can make small parts on a large machine...but its really difficult to make large parts on a small machine".....

Just let us know when its in your shop...and remember that it did not happen unless there are photos...
Cheers Ross


..
 








 
Back
Top