Deckel model 6017 Rotary Table 380 mm / Rundtisch
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    Default Deckel model 6017 Rotary Table 380 mm / Rundtisch

    Dear Deckel enthusiasts,

    Yesterday I was offered this Deckel model 6017 rotary table (380mm diameter) at a price that was too low to refuse. The top is in good shape, the corner of one slot is chipped, but nothing that matters is wrong.

    The price was good because the seller pointed out that there were some missing parts. Could someone help me identify what is needed? It seems that the handle for the 24-point indexer is gone, there is also a rounded stub which might be a broken off handle, I'm not sure.

    img_4063.jpg

    img_4064.jpg

    [Edit: yes, the rounded stub is just a broken off handle for fixing the "moving angular scale" into place.]

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 04-26-2015 at 07:39 AM.

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    The indexer pin is easy to make, it's just a spring loaded pin. You are correct on the second photo, the handle is just broken off. Look closer and you'll see where the handle used to be...

    I have one apart, I can try to take a pic of the pin.

    Chris

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    Hi Chris,

    You're right about the broken handle, I remove the stub with some vise-locks and can see and feel the stub where the handle broke. It's a DIN 99 Kegelgriff Type N, M6. They can be purchased for under 2€ each, but the minimum order is 30€.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris999 View Post
    I have one apart, I can try to take a pic of the pin.
    Thank you very much! A picture of the pin/handle/spring assembly, or whatever you think is missing, would be helpful. I'll probably make replacements on the lathe. So a sketch with some dimensions would also be very nice to have. My parts book lists the complete assembly as part 6017 30 000116 03 (Indexhülse). It looks like what is missing is the handle, then a shaft/spring.

    Out of curiosity, I poked a long 6mm punch down the hollow "splined shaft" where the pin/handle should go, then rotated the table. I was expecting the punch to fall into one of the 24 indexing holes, but it didn't. So it could be that there is a broken off piece inside, which needs to be removed. I presume that the blued steel ring screws out with a pin wrench, is that right?

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 04-26-2015 at 03:27 PM.

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    Bruce:
    Here you go....











    Cheers Ross

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    Detail if the plunger end...note it is hollow around the center pin to allow room for the spring...Depth is about 29mm





    Cheers Ross

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    Thanks Ross! Saved me the effort.
    Bruce, the blued ring attaches the cartridge, but it comes out in the opposite direction. Big ass locking handle is clamped to a round nut that retains the rotating table. Remove it and the top lifts off. The index pin is likely gone otherwise the table wouldn't rotate.

    Chris

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    Ross, thank you for the photos, they are just what I needed.

    Chris, I'm confused about your comment:
    the blued ring attaches the cartridge, but it comes out in the opposite direction.
    To disassemble the index pin assembly, I first need to remove the blue threaded ring, which I presume has a right-hand thread, so I rotate it counter-clockwise to unscrew it, right? Or is there more to it than that?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

    PS: Ross, how do you get your embedded photos to show up so large? Mine used to look like that. I haven't changed anything on camera or computer, but now when I upload them, they are postage-stamp sized. Any idea how I can fix that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Ross, thank you for the photos, they are just what I needed.

    Chris, I'm confused about your comment: To disassemble the index pin assembly, I first need to remove the blue threaded ring, which I presume has a right-hand thread, so I rotate it counter-clockwise to unscrew it, right? Or is there more to it than that?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

    PS: Ross, how do you get your embedded photos to show up so large? Mine used to look like that. I haven't changed anything on camera or computer, but now when I upload them, they are postage-stamp sized. Any idea how I can fix that?
    Bruce: Pretty sure what Chris is getting at is that to remove the plunger assembly youu must first remove the knob (not a problem in your case) then once the retaining ring nut is removed the
    assembly is withdrawn through the inside of the table. This requires removal of the top surface. This is accomplished by removing the clamp lever and round nut.

    As to the photos, they are not embedded on this site..I post photos form a hosting service. I use Photobucket.
    They offer free cloud storage of photos that can be linked directly to this site....
    For detailed info on doing this see:
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...hinist-108425/

    I used to use another hosting service. That site changed and stopped offering the link service. This is the reason that many of my older posts no longer have photos (GRRRRR)
    Photobucket seems more secure in this regard....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    once the retaining ring nut is removed the assembly is withdrawn through the inside of the table.
    Chris, Ross, OK, I get it, thank you! Will pull off table and remove nut, then fabricate parts and reassemble.

    [Edit: a further question. Is this hollow plunger made from three parts?



    Part one: the tapered head on the left

    Part two: a smaller-diameter central pin which fits into that, sticking out on the right

    Part three: the larger-diameter shell which fits snugly over the tapered head, to "contain" the spring

    Is the cross-hole in the shell/tapered head for a dowel or tapered dowel that locks the three parts together? Or is it for oil to enter the area around the spring?

    Cheers, Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 04-29-2015 at 12:24 AM.

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    Bruce:
    My initial evaluation is that the plunger is built in two pieces....Outer diameter with wedge shaped end slightly relieved between the wedge and the full diameter of the
    plunger. Outer of the plunger is heat treated....RC 58 or so.....
    Center shaft is held to the plunger body via cross pin, and looks to be fitted into a drilling at the bottom of the larger ID bore for the spring....Center shaft is not heat treated.
    Included angle of the plunger wedge appears to be 30* with a 3mm wide flat at the nose.
    Overall height of the wedge portion is about 6.85mm.
    Overall length of the plunger including the wedge end is 63.85mm
    Center shaft extends from the plunger by 31.4mm and the depth of the bore for the spring is aprox 28.5mm.
    Shaft is 7mm OD
    Cross drilling for the retaining pin is 29mm from the wedge end.....

    Free length of the spring is 53.4
    OD of the spring is 9.85
    Wire diameter: 1.2mm
    ID: 7.3mm

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    thank you! I think one number is missing: what's the OD of the plunger near the nose, and away from the nose? (I assume that "relieved" means smaller OD away from the plunger end, is that right?)

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    OD at the pointed end of the plunger is: 12.25mm
    Length from the end of the wedge to the step where the OD increases to the full plunger diameter is: 8mm
    OD of the plunger , of course is made to fit the ID of the housing ...nominal 13mm...
    This is to be fit very close....Slop here = play in the indexing....
    Cheers Ross

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    Well this is "turning out" better than I expected. I lifted off the top. Everything is so closely fitted that any misalignment causes the parts to grab. So what I did is to lift the top up a fraction with the hoist, then tap it lightly with a copper hammer. The vibrations make the bottom slip down a fraction. Then lift/tap/lift/tap and it comes free without any trouble.

    img_4072.jpg

    (By the way, what is the big opening in the base casting, visible at the front of the photo above, just to the left of the plunger assembly? Should this normally be covered by something? It seems like a terrible idea, as it provides a path for dirt and chips to get in the area in between the base and the top.)

    Post-mortem reveals that the knob has been pulled downwards by the PO hard enough to shear the internal cross pin. Note the two remaining fragments of the cross pin, one from either side! So all I need to make is a knob and the center shaft.

    img_4075.jpg

    Remarkably, the plunger was jammed in the downwards (free) position, so the table could still rotate. I might need to hone the barrel a bit with some grinding compound to make it slide freely again.

    The table had no standing oil inside, but the table bearing surfaces are mirror-like and free of any galling. I haven't inspected the ring gear and the worm gear, but suspect that they will also be OK. Whenever I embark on one of these explorations, I always end up impressed at how resilient this Deckel gear is.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 04-30-2015 at 10:18 AM.

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    Hi Ross,

    I've made the 7mm shaft and pinned it to the wedge assembly. Tomorrow I'll make the knob and get the table back together. If you're around the shop today, could you please post a handful of dimensions from the knob, so that I can get close to the original? I'll need the major and minor OD and length, and depth of the large internal hole (ID should be a hair over 15mm). I'd also like to know if the pin is straight or tapered, and its nominal diameter.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-02-2015 at 02:48 AM.

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    Bruce:
    Sorry, just saw your posting...won't be back at the shop till Monday, sorry,
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    No problem, I've scaled some dimensions from off your photos. Here's the result.

    First a photo of the top part of the table (upside down). The 24 slots in the periphery engage the locating pin:

    img_4084.jpg

    Here is the bottom part of the table as I am fitting the shaft, you can see a long stretch of excess shafting sticking out the back

    img_4085.jpg

    Here is my home-made knob in place, in the "engaged" position. When the top is in place, it doesn't move this far upwards.

    img_4086.jpg

    Here is the knob and pin in the retracted position. You can see that the wedge is slightly below the level of the face of the housing, guaranteeing that it won't engage the table.

    img_4088.jpg

    I ended up using a 2.5mm pin, simply because that's what was at the other end of the shaft. It seems strong enough. It was the longest 2.5mm pin that I had lying around, but it's still a couple of mm too short. One of these days I'll pick up a longer one and replace it.

    The knob is made from a short length of 1 1/2" diameter 1144 stress-free from the scrap drawer. My knob might be a bit "deeper" than the original. I made the neck exactly 24mm diameter and deep enough to grab in a 5C collet. So if the knob interferes with the mounting surface beneath, then I'll put the knob back on the lathe and remove some more material.

    img_4089.jpg

    The purpose of the hole in the base that I asked about some posts ago, is to enable one to remove the bolts that hold the cast-iron top to the gear/bearing plate. In principle, removing the top in this way might make it very easy to clean up the top. But I'm cautious about doing this, thinking that unbolting then rebolting the top might mess up the flatness and vertical run-out of the table.

    I'll find or make some kind of easily removable rubber plug or stopper to close off the hole.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-03-2015 at 01:41 AM.

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    Hi Ross,

    Before I put it all back together, I think I'm going to clean off the fossilized oil and goop. To do this, I need to remove the gear ring from the table top. It's held on with six socket head bolts and two dowel pins. Is that OK, or will removing then re-bolting this piece cause me to lose some of the flatness/precision of the table? I'll check the torque when I remove the bolts then use a torque wrench to get it back to the same point. I assume that this is something like a cylinder head, just needs to be gradually cross-tightened to keep it from twisting.

    I've also pulled out the cylindrical housing containing the spiral gear (also covered in oxidized oil and varnish). I think I'm also going to remove the spiral gear from the housing. The end bearing has some kind of sophisticated retainer with adjusting screws for removing end-play or pre-loading. Again, is this something that I shouldn't mess with? Or relatively simple to put back together again, without introducing additional play?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

    PS: my trick for getting off the varnish without damaging the metal is OVEN CLEANER. Spray it on, wait 15 or 30 minutes, rinse off with hot water, dry with a towel, then spray on all sides with WD-40 to prevent corrosion.

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    Think you should be fine removing the ring....to check the torque you can't just loosen and note the torq1ue required to loosen.
    It will take more torque to remove the bolt than they were installed with.....Take a marker and mark the head and ring with a "timing " mark
    at their tightened position......then loosen the bolt, lube with oil on threads and the head, torque till the marks line back up and watch the torque noting its value at the point
    where the timing marks re-align....
    I use a dial type torque wrench for this as you need to see the peak value at alignment....
    Check several bolts.....
    Be sure to stone the mating surfaces before re-assembly , and use the same oil for the bolts on assembly.

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for the tips, I didn't know about stoning, it makes sense here. I have some flat diamond grit lapping plates that should work well for this.

    In preparation for removing the ring I marked the six M10 SHCS as you suggested and sprayed them with penetrating oil. I was expecting them to be so tight that they would "crack" loose. So imagine my surprise: all of them were roughly (I am NOT kidding) about 1 foot-pound of torque (below the resolution of my torque wrench, which goes up to 150 foot-pounds in steps of 10 foot-pounds! I could have practically removed them with my fingers alone.

    I've pulled off the gear ring, I've done two rounds of oven cleaner but it is still not clean, so it will go into a 70C ultrasonic bath later today. The oil-varnish must be about fifty years old, it is tenacious.

    Any advice about the spiral gear (second part of my previous email)?

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Bruce:
    Don't see any e-mail...please resend...
    Cheers Ross


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