Deckel model 6017 Rotary Table 380 mm / Rundtisch - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Hi Ross,

    Sorry, I meant to say "second part of my previous post". In any case, I've gone ahead and disassembled that the spiral gear as well. The strange part I was worried about was only a short threaded retainer that pre-loads a ball bearing. The retainer is split and the screw bears on the split portion to lock the thread into place. A bit more cleaning and I can put it all back together.

    I am thinking about taking the table top to a business nearby that has a nice surface grinder and getting them to kiss the top clean. I have checked with a micrometer that the outer bearing surface of the table defines the correct reference plane, so it should only be a matter of laying it on a magnetic chuck and then grinding.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-06-2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Ross,
    I am thinking about taking the table top to a business nearby that has a nice surface grinder and getting them to kiss the top clean. I have checked with a micrometer that the outer bearing surface of the table defines the correct reference plane, so it should only be a matter of laying it on a magnetic chuck and then grinding.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    OR.........................................






    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    That's pretty! How long did it take you to scrape it? I thought about doing the same. But my top has a substantial chip/divot in the middle that's about a half a mm deep, as well as several deep scratches. I'd like to get those ground out.

    (I could also use my top for scraping practice, before having it ground.)

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I've found someone in my area with a good wide grinder, that will take the 380mm diameter table top. But I first need to remove between 0.5 and 1mm of material, to get below the divot on the rotary table top. What's the best way to do that?

    Since my mill's X/Y is 500/200mm, I can't just bolt the rotary table top to the mill table and go at it. So my idea was to reassemble the rotary table, bolt it to the mill table, lock rotation, then using either a shell mill or a planing head, take a pass from center to edge, rotate table 15 degrees, lock rotation, take another pass, etc. Then, when the top is skimmed below the nasty divot, take it to the grinder to finish the job.

    Does this approach make sense, or would I be better off another way?

    Should I use an HSS slab mill on a horizontal arbor, or a carbide-tipped face mill in the vertical head, to skim off around 0.5 or 1mm? I'm not sure if the rotary table top is cast iron or semi-steel.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Why not just rotate the table while milling..make a turn and move to the next concentric ring...like a bulls eye.....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Why not just rotate the table while milling..make a turn and move to the next concentric ring...like a bulls eye.....
    Hi Ross,

    I could also do that, but was thinking I was likely to get a better finish if the table was locked during the cut. Your approach would also rule out using a slab mill on a horizontal arbor, which I thought might give a better ("swirl-free") finish than a face mill. Final point, if the cut is radial then the cutting forces are applied to the large diameter ring bearing inside the table, if the cut is tangential then the cutting forces are applied to a handful of teeth on the ring/worm gear.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Default Some photos of the internals

    Now that I've got everything cleaned up, for the record I thought I'd post some photos of the internals before I start to reassemble.

    img_4094.jpg

    The parts on the left are the worm gear and housing. The bearing shell on the worm gear shaft was too tight to remove. The threaded retaining "plug" has a screw that splits the thread to lock it in place.

    (I have not shown the handle, ring, indexing plates, and locking hardware.)

    On the right is the central shaft used for locking, along with the locking lever and the locking nut.

    img_4095.jpg

    This is the top with the gear ring, central shaft, and indexing ring removed. In this state, it can be laid flat on a magnetic chuck for grinding. I am going to refinish the other side.

    img_4096.jpg

    This is the base with the indexing pin, shown earlier in this thread.

    img_4097.jpg

    Here are the indexing ring and central gear. Both have two locating dowels. On my rotary table, neither had the retaining screws/bolts very tight. The location of the central gear is quite critical, on the minor OD it has the rotation bearing surface.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-09-2015 at 03:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    free") if the cut is radial then the cutting forces are applied to the large diameter ring bearing inside the table, if the cut is tangential then the cutting forces are applied to a handful of teeth on the ring/worm gear.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Isn't this what a rotary table is designed to do.....?
    As to finish...thought you were going to get it finished ground.....Could do the top final using a flycutter covering the surface from edge to center hole in one setting running radial....6" flycutter using a single point
    insert tool holder not a problem for a good 40 taper spindle if doing a light finish cut.

    PS i cut in a groove and fitted an O ring to the OD of the worm holder at its exit...bottom of that holder is below the oil level i believe.

    Wondering if your table has a sight glass for the oil level. I have two of these tables and one has the glass and one does not..always thought that was curious.

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Yes, I know that's what a rotary table is intended to do, but I don't know if it's meant to withstand the rotary forces of a 150mm facing head.

    I do intend to bring the table top to a local shop that has a big grinder. But there's a deep divot in the table; if I ask the local shop to grind that out it will take ages. So I'd like to mill it as close to finished as possible, then bring it to the shop just have the finish ground.

    Your idea of a single-point cutter isn't bad. I could set up my Wohlhaupter that way, and do the last cut just by rotating the table under it. Since the diameter of the center hole is 40mm, the minimum fly-cutter diameter is 170mm = 6.7" The cuts will just be interrupted by the clamping slots.

    I thought that the idea of a slab cutter was good, from what I have read they leave a nice finish on cast iron and steel. But I like the idea of a single uninterrupted cut even better...

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I've found someone in my area with a good wide grinder, that will take the 380mm diameter table top. But I first need to remove between 0.5 and 1mm of material, to get below the divot on the rotary table top.
    I have no knowledge of Deckels, but if you take off that much from the top surface, you will change the height of the neck of the T-slot. That will probably mean that any item which would clamp by means of T-bolt on an eccentric cam (as is customary for Aciera and Schaublin), will not clamp anymore.

    Charles

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    Hi Charles,

    thanks for your note, I didn't realize that the table thickness could be this critical, all of my clamping stuff is just a bolt or nut that tightens, and doesn't care about 1mm. There is so much meat remaining above the slots, I didn't think it could make any difference.

    A year ago I had my main worktable planed, a fraction of a mm was removed and it didn't cause any problems.

    I'll measure the depth of the divot carefully before proceeding further.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I hope my English was clear enough, but I here are 2 photo's from my Aciera.
    this shows the tailstock in locked position (down is unlocked). The other photo shows the cam-operated T-nut, which actually only can move a maximum of ~0.8mm from unlocked to locked. Considering you would need maybe 0.5mm free from the T-slot in the unlocked position, that does not much room, if any, to take off from the T-slot (reason to check/measure clean tables with T-slots for Aciera/Schaublin very carefully!). But I don't know about Deckels.

    regards, Charles

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    Charles, your English is perfect, I understood what you meant. Thanks for the photos!

    I've checked the divot on my table more carefully, it's only about 0.2mm deep.

    I just got the table reassembled today, so in the coming week I'll set up to face the surface prior to having it ground.

    I keep finding little things to fix. A 2mm x 5mm "stop pin" inside the rotary handle was broken off; to fix it I had to drill out a 3mm x 22mm tapered pin to remove the handle head, drive out the stop of the stop pin, and replace the stop pin.

    Ross, my table does have an oil eye/sight glass. I had removed it for disassembly and cleaning, it looks compatible with the replacement Elsta parts on the FP2 itself. I've reinstalled it, and so far it's not leaking.

    Regarding your O-ring, I am surprised, the Deckel designers are too clever to overlook this. I have a possible explanation. As I was filling my table with oil, I noticed that when the worm gear is engaged, the indicated oil level is very low (bottom of the sight glass). But when the worm gear is dis-engaged, the oil level rises to the middle of the sight glass. Apparently when the worm-gear holder is rotated out of engagement, a significant volume of metal moves in the downwards direction, displacing the oil bath upwards.

    So my theory is, provided that you leave the worm-gear ENGAGED, the oil level is *below* the bore of the worm holder. It's only when you DISENGAGE the worm-gear, that the oil rises *above* the bore of the worm holder and can leak out. If true, it means that the 6017 table should generally be stored with the worm-gear ENGAGED. Is your table that was bleeding oil the one with the oil eye? Do you remember if it was full of oil with the worm gear engaged or disengaged? If you had filled it to the middle of the oil eye with the worm gear engaged, and/or stored the table with the worm gear disengaged, that might explain it.

    Ross, your tip about stoning was very useful. I've been stoning (diamond lapping plate) vise bases, the rotary table feet, and other things around the shop. I've found a number of dings surrounded by a raised areas, which are easy to stone away. I've also found a couple of more major bruises, where the drag of the stone clued me into a problem. In one case I found a raised area that was 0.005"=0.12mm high -- I used a flat file to bring it down close enough to stone the rest away.

    By the way, can someone explain how the table brings oil to the bearing surfaces? That part seems to work very well: I can see the shimmer of an oil film at the interface, and the table action is very smooth. But I don't understand how oil makes it from the reservoir under the top to the bearing surfaces.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-11-2015 at 12:25 AM.

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    Hi Ross,

    In reading through the manual I found a couple of relevant comments to what you wrote...

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Isn't this what a rotary table is designed to do.....?
    The 1974 FP2 manual says (page 29, English language version): "Before starting milling operations, the circular worktable should under all circumstances be clamped by means of lever K1 in order to relieve the worm and the index pin of cutting forces." I am comfortable ignoring this for small cutters, but am less sure about the large ones.

    [EDIT, I've set the rotary table up on the mill, and am happily surprised with the accuracy of the X-table movement, over 190 mm Z on the rotary table top deviates by less than 0.01mm. But I did find that locking versus unlocking the table gives rise to about 0.02mm of vertical movement. So I'm going to use a face cutter to make cuts moving radially out along X by 190mm. Then unlock & rotate & lock the table, and do another cut, etc.]

    Wondering if your table has a sight glass for the oil level. I have two of these tables and one has the glass and one does not..always thought that was curious.
    One clue comes from comparing the 1941, 1964 and 1974 instruction manuals. In 1941 and 1964 it looks like this:

    rt_1941.jpg

    and in 1974 it looks like this:

    rt_1974.jpg

    So it appears that the later versions eliminated one of the oil fill ports, and got rid of the oil eye. But both versions indicate that a half-liter of oil is needed for filling.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-11-2015 at 09:00 AM. Reason: pictures missing...

  16. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post



    The 1974 FP2 manual says (page 29, English language version): "Before starting milling operations, the circular worktable should under all circumstances be clamped by means of lever K1 in order to relieve the worm and the index pin of cutting forces." I am comfortable ignoring this for small cutters, but am less sure about the large ones.

    Bruce

    Wow....never seen that passage before. I find this extremely curious....wonder what the value of a rotary table is if one can't expect to use it in a dynamic mode to mill curves and circles...
    Pretty astounding to my mind....Every rotary table/dividing head and even modern 4th axis setups for CNC machines use a worm and wheel
    setup to control the table rotation..never seen any maker of such devices caution against use by milling with movement of the table...
    Not questioning the statements existence , just wondering what exactly Deckel would have a manual milling machine owner do to generate a curved surface on a part?

    On further thinking about your table...some caution here. Cutting or grinding the top surface of that table will likely change its flatness.....Cutting a seasoned cast surface will likely
    change the stress on the top relative to the underside (bearing) If you have a good qualified surface plate i would want to take a "print" of the bearing side before doing any work to the top, and compare after the
    surfacing work.....My guess is that it will be different before and after.

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    I saw your last post after I'd already skimmed the top to prepare it for grinding. Here is the starting point:

    img_4098.jpg

    You can see the chip out of the top at about 9 o'clock, 1/3 of the way out from the center. I'd also identified some high points where a gorilla had over-stressed the T-slots.

    I checked the tram very carefully and also checked that the table surface was parallel to the x ways. I set the facing head about 0.01mm above the table surface and knocked off the high spots, here is the worst of them:

    img_4100.jpg

    Part of the chip in the top is visible in the bottom left corner of the photo.

    I did a first pass removing 0.16mm, going radially from the outside to the center, unlock, rotate 30 degrees, lock, repeat. This gave a nice surface but I could feel some slight ridges, 0.01-0.02mm across the cut boundaries. So then I did a second pass, removing 0.02mm. This time I snugged the table so there was some drag on rotation, then did a slow feed in X from the outside to the center, rotating the table as it went. I'm happy with the outcome here, it is very smooth and should be a good starting point for grinding, only 0.01 or 0.02mm needs to be removed. (It feels much better than it looks.)

    img_4103.jpg

    My surface plate at home is 300 x 450mm, so not big enough to check the table, but for fun I might bring the top to work where I can check it on a larger surface plate before grinding.

    Ross, in thinking about this, I'm not worried about the stresses that a couple of tenths of a mm will induce in the entire top. This is especially the case because the T-slots interrupt the surface, so that any trapped stresses can't sum up.

    An interesting question is, should the top be flat when not locked, or when locked down tight? The locking nut pulls down hard along an annular ring in the center of the top, and in principle might deform the top somewhat. I'm curious about this, so will do some measurements to see how much the top moves vertically at different radii, when going from loose to locked. I think there is only one choice of reference surface: the inside and outside flat bearing surfaces under the table top.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-12-2015 at 08:48 AM.

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  19. #37
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    Hi Ross,

    I did some measurements and found the following. When I clamp the top, the outside (near radius 190mm) moves down by about 0.01mm = 0.0004". The middle (near radius 100mm) and center area (near radius 30mm) move down by 0.015 - 0.02mm = 0.0006-0.0008". So when you scraped the top flat, did you do it with the top unclamped (or removed from the table) or with the top clamped? (Next time I visit Franz Singer, I'll ask how they do it.)

    I took the top to a local shop that does grinding, and after doing a few minutes of measurements, they complimented me on my work and said it was already so close to flat and parallel that they recommended lapping rather than grinding. They are well set-up for that, so I'll get it back at the end of next week.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 05-13-2015 at 08:22 AM.

  20. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    . So when you scraped the top flat, did you do it with the top unclamped (or removed from the table) or with the top clamped?
    Cheers,
    Bruce

    I scraped all surfaces...ie the top and the underside (bearing) making it flat and parallel (within .0001")
    Also scraped the base bearing and the mounting face (base)

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I scraped all surfaces...ie the top
    When you scraped the top flat, did you do it when it was off the base? If so, then when locked on the base it will dip in the middle by around 0.0005", and no longer be flat. Of course if you don't typically lock it on the base, then it should remain flat.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Bruce:
    I did all parts as individual pieces. Not tested the distortion of the top under clamping.....
    I suspect that this is a product of this design, while being handy, not the best as to maintaining accuracy of the table.
    The top will always bend under clamping ...that design breaks one of the basic machine "setup" rules by having the load of clamping applied
    away from the support...ie cantilevered.....I would never clamp a part to my machine where the riser or spacer was not directly under the point of
    applied clamping force....
    Further because of the slot configuration i would bet that the bend of the top by the clamp pull down is not constant.

    I like the ease of use, but for keeping the table flat, edge clamps that bear directly over the support of the face bearing are just better.

    I would be interested in knowing the clearance you measure between the ID and OD of the rotary bearing surfaces?

    Cheers Ross


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