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Deckel NC Model with a dead Control

toolnuts

Cast Iron
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Location
washington
Hi all,

I am looking for a Deckel NC model (FP2NC, FP3NC, or FP4NC), with
the 6300 rpm head, that has a dead control and is mechanically sound.

I would like to try a CNC retrofit, using a Centroid CNC control.

I would prefer a FP2NC with a universal table. I know the universal
table is rare on the NC models. I want the universal table so I can
adjust for wear.

I guess if I get the plain table I can always buy the universal table
to install on it later. Do all the Deckels have the same slot spacing?

I guess most people are put off in doing a retrofit by getting the gear
change aspect to work correctly.

If you know of such a machine send me a email to [email protected]

Thanks all,

Paul
 
Some general information re. your quest.

First off be careful. The first gen FP-NC's seem to have a affinity for having galled ways on the vertical slides. More so i think on the earlier "non -Flip" versions, but
still have see it on the "Flip" head machines....Not sure , might be a coincidence, but the only galled ways on flip head machines i have seen have been on FP2NC's....

As to the "Tool makers" table....There are two sizes( 2038 -1100 and 2038-800). The one that is appropriate for the FP2NC(2038 800) is quite rare! I have the only one i have ever seen here in the states....surly more exist,
just don't see them too often. More chance to get one from Germany, Singer possibly, but bear in mind that they are heavy and shipping could be an issue.

There is a difference between the manual Deckels (FP2, FP3) "T" slot size and spacing on the vertical table (where the work table mounts) as compared to the FP-NC's . Same also applies to the size and spacing
or the work surface "T" slots.

Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

When did the second generation start, and did the 2nd gen
have the same galling problem? What about FP3NC?

Paul
 
FWIW, if you want a machine to do work with, you would be many dollars and hours ahead finding the best condition machine you can, with Dialog4 or Heidenhain control already on it. The Dialog4 control is really good for prototype and repair work or "manual milling machine" type work. It has serious limitations for complex profiling work due to slow processing speed, limited look ahead and small memory.

A retrofit on a Deckel is not a minor undertaking in any way, the shifting is only one of many serious obstacles to be dealt with. Servos, encoders, cables, among other things, including time, the costs add up very fast. And that is not even considering mechanical variables, which can't be fixed via a universal table. Just my humble opinion, your mileage may vary.
 
Sorry , can't really answer that (year of build) My belief is that the Flip design came in around 1986 or so...but with Deckel its a bit nebulous ...they seemed to have plenty of
design overlap so i might be off.

Only seen one late (Flip) FP3NC and that one belongs to me......Its vertical slide was fine, no damage.
I did try to "tune up" the slides on that machine in a major overhaul. Box ways on that machine were so hard that thy defied scraping...Neither hand scraper (Sandvik carbide) or power Biax Carbide would dent the
way surfaces, just too hard. I could make light scratches, but no material removal, unlike my first gen (camel back) FP4NC which did have the dreaded galling that was repaired by scraping...no problem.

Believe the harder way treatment on the later machines helped with the way issue...Never see this on the manual machines, but the NC's work harder, and move faster, not to mention doing things like peck drilling
that would work the vertical ways pretty hard....(i program for lots of lube cycles when doing this)

Doing the rework of the FP3NC i also noticed a much more aggressive scraping technique on the vertical surfaces as compared to my FP4NC.....
I opinion is that Deckel recognized the way problem and made steps to reduce the problem....
Was this done on all "Flip" machines, of was it something that came along somewhat later...i have no way of knowing......Seems here that a later build might be better at preventing the problem, but no guarantee...
Would depend on how the machine was used.....

Late machines also had longer "Y" travel (FP4NC) and higher speed servos (higher rapids) that incorporated control interlocked thermal protection.

For what its worth, personally i like the earlier version better....(For most work) I do lots of repair work. Off sized stuff. The earlier machines give greater head room owing to the vertical head actually being perched above
the "Y" slide. For me more vertical is important.....

Needless to say that having the 6300 spindle and the ability to go from horizontal to vertical without needing to tram the vertical head is a pretty nice feature......I am lucky as i have some of each style and can choose the best
for a specific job...


Cheers Ross
 
alfagta left out the part about how installing/removing the powered accessories (like the Precision Boring Head, Slotting head, High Speed Head, etc) is simpler and faster on the 3150 machines.

Have both flip head and 3150 machines here and use them every day. For what we do, the flip head (lots of workpieces get machined with the vertical spindle and the horizontal spindle in the same set up) is a big timesaver. Not sure if it's true across the board, but our flip head machine has less gear noise and quieter servos vs the older 3150 machine.
 
Hello Legoboy,

It all depends on the condition of the machine.

Why, do you have one you want to sell?

Paul
I have 2 fp4nc.'s one early 83 and a later 86 with a rotary axis. They both have Siemens control and they both work. I dont use them enough to justify keeping both so I am considering selling one. But I dont want to give it away though so that is why I asked what you are wanting to spend.
 
Hi Legoboy,

What Siemans control do they have? Do they each have the 6300 rpm spindle speed?

You say one has a rotary table, is that just a rotary table or the full universal
tilt, swivel, and rotary?

What shape are they in? What tolerance can you hold?

If you tram the table, what are the four readings - right to left, and front to back?

What are the foot print dimensions?

What documentation do you have?

Do you have the orange book with all the schematics?

What is the spindle taper and type? SK 40, NMTB40, or ISO 40

Does it have a power drawbar that uses the drawbar knob-studs in
tool holder?

What voltage is required?

Are the dial in metric or inch?

I was hoping for one of the smaller deckels as space is at a premium.

We can talk VIA regular email: [email protected]

Paul
 
Paul:
With the FP-NC's the big space hog is the "LARGE" electrical cabinet that houses the large electrical needs like the servo drives.
Be aware that the original servos on the Dialog machines are 250 VDC ....Most retro fit setups will not handle this. You need pretty big torque for the "Z" axis moves as you are moving the table and work.(heavy)
Think on the FP4Nc you need something like 22 amps output on the "Z". Of course the "X" and "Y" will require less.
Factory servos also (FP-NC) have overload clutches incorporated to prevent dam,age in event of a collision.

Also if thinking of retaining the original servos, they use DC tachometers (analog) to monitor the velocity of the servo.

Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

Thanks for the information on the servo voltages. The DC tach feedback
is a good thing, one can't do a proper control system without it (rate
feedback).

I know many of the so-called digital controls don't use DC tach, but
I'm very familiar with it. Many of the controllers try to make it easy
for hobby people to do retrofits. In any case, to do a proper control system
you will need a rate feedback signal of some kind. You can derive it from
rate of change in position. The question is can you derive a rate signal
fast enough not to harm the stability of the system or harm performance.

For example, if you try to drive very fast in a dense fog you will crash.
This is an example of the feedback information coming to the driver to slowly.
In this case, obstacles in you way are the feedback information you require
in a timely manner - to late and you crash.

You can do all control functions in either analog or digital, but the system
still needs all the same signals/information.

How reliable are the servo amplifiers on these machines? Do you find you
must re-tune and re-balance them?

The big problem with all of these controls is the use of catalytic
capacitors. Catalytic capacitors have a limited life. The dielectric
in them eventually dries out over time and then they fail. Most
all of the older Deckel controls are going to be failing because
their capacitor are at the end of their life. You can install
new capacitors to replace the old ones and that will fix the
problem.

Most people would opt for a retrofit because of all the added benefits.
Most of the retrofits I've seen for Deckels are to expensive, and are
not warranted for such old machines.

The retrofits can't meet the performance of newer CNCs. Many newer
used CNC can be purchased for less than the cost of a retrofit.

I think that Deckels, Mahos,...etc. are a little like collector cars.

The owner is an affectionato of the Euro style mill.

Paul
 
The big problem with all of these controls is the use of catalytic capacitors. Catalytic capacitors have a limited life. The dielectric in them eventually dries out over time and then they fail. Most all of the older Deckel controls are going to be failing because their capacitor are at the end of their life. You can install new capacitors to replace the old ones and that will fix the problem.

I know these as "electrolytic capacitors" rather than as "catalytic capacitors". Is that really what you mean to say?
 
if you try to look up catalytic capacitor, Google turns it into electrolytic
capacitor.

The term catalytic refers to a chemical reaction that requires a catalyst in order
to get the reaction to take place.

The term electrolytic refers to the electrolyte that is added to Aluminum capacitors
in order to create and maintain the Aluminum Oxide that forms on the capacitor's
Aluminum sheeting.

A capacitor is essentially two metal (conductive) plates separated by a non-conductor.

The non-conductor, in this case, is the Aluminum Oxide.

Paul Hoffman
 
Paul:
Bit slow here so thought i would share some thoughts about retrofitting a Deckel FP-NC, on the off chance that some of this had not already crossed your thinking on this project.

First off, the work for the machine needs to be specific. If you are looking to start a "job shop" using a Deckel you have already lost.
Limits of the FP-NC design make them unsuitable to be competitive in a job shop environment. Low spindle speed (even at 6300 flip) lac of a tool changer...Relatively slow rapids and long gear shift times
all limit the machines ability to compete even assuming the modern control retro was successful.

You need to have a "niche" work/machine requirement that plays well with the strengths of the FP-NC structure....Horizontal / vertical spindles with sensitive quills.
Full working spindle horse power when working at low RPM's (full gear drive) Flexible setups, and the ability to utilize the factory accessories to advantage. Overall accuracy with relatively large work envelope in a reasonable
sized package.
All this, to me, suggests either hobby, inventor, model maker, specialized component maker or repair as some of the areas that the Deckel NC's would excel at.

I am more or less an old school guy. Not a big fan of the Centroid system. Some have had good results, others seem to end up with a "working" machine, that is less than ideal, of course your results may vary.
Personally i Love the Dialog4 setup. For me it is almost ideal. Don't need a control with more features. If i need to do complex shapes (3-D) i do so programming off line on a good CAM system (SurfCam)
I could stand to have higher look ahead and higher processing speed....My Dialog has the factory DNC so i am not limited to program size. Have easily run programs that have 80,000 lines of code with no issues.

If i was considering a retro i would be looking seriously at Heidenhain. I like their interface (nothing is as nice or functional as the original Dialog user interface) Like the fact that they use discrete buttons (hard)
for functions, not PC style "F" keys.....
Currently there are several Heidenhain TNC controls with keyboards and monitors on E-bay for reasonable money....

If the incentive to go with the Centroid is based on having support , i would want to know if the reseller has any experience at doing a Deckel.....Lots of detail differences here as compared to a Bridgeport or Tree retro.
As example...the spindles , horizontal and vertical rotate in opposite directions...Has to do with the gearing. The Deckel operator never sees this. Changing the tool release from vertical to horizontal also changes the logic
for the spindle rotation....so the horizontal will operate same as the vertical...its seamless, a small detail, but necessary.

Gear changes employ a system of low speed (voltage dropping resistors) spindle jogging while releasing the brake...goes three / four cycles,then reverses for another three/four cycles then back forward for another set.....if the gear is not found in all that,the machine faults.....This is all something that can be handled with a PLC , but it takes doing and it has to work every time.

A few words about the servo's.
The Siemens servos are reputed to be "bullet proof"....My experience supports that view!
Some would argue that DC servos are a maintenance issue....Maybe, but i have been running my FP4NC since 1993 and have yet to need to do any service to the servos including motor brushes.
Nice thing about the factory motors is that they are nicely integrated and fitted with internal brakes to hols slides when is turned off...or if you need to lock them.
The factory setup also incorporates over load clutches to protect the machine from damage in event of a crash....

The Factory Bosch servo drives cone in two versions. The later style interchanges with the earlier and can be mixed within the overall chassis, with the restriction that the newer amplifier card can only be
used with the newer regulator card (there are two cards for each axis, and slots to run 4 axis standard)
The newer series of servo drive cards (has a piggy back board that carries the resistors to tune the motor for its specific axis) are more desirable, deemed more repairable.
Newer boards should have the beginning part number of : 047--------
Early version : 038-------------

Seems that some retrofitters believe that the Bosch unit is fine. FPS(Germany) does Heidenhain control retrofits but retains the original Bosch setup for the servos.

I have been succesfull running an FP2NC using a modern servo drive. My selection was to use AMC (advanced Motion Controls) Digiflex digital servo drive: DPRANIE -030A400
See here for specs: DPRANIE-030A400 Modbus RTU RS485 servo drive

I did this several years back to see if i could come up with a useable substitute for the Bosch drive.....
Only did one axis, but the results were fine, performance as good or better than the Bosch setup.

Choose the digital drive for several reasons. First off they can be programmed..comes with software to set and monitor the operating performance. Interface with a PC through a RS232 port,
software includes an "O-scope that graphs accel and decell curves.
Further the digital drive has logic that allows it to be switched on and off for doing stuff like enabling the hand wheels....
Also this drive was self contained. Has its own internal power supply so all it needs is to be fed three phase power in the correct voltage range.

At the time i was looking to have a replacement servo drive that would work with the existing Dialog control.
There were some hurdles to using this drive. First and most importnt was the original tach output.
The digital drive is designed to accept analog tach input. That is good but the voltage range on the drive is too low (-10 +10v) The output of the factory tach on rapid i believe can
reach 50vdc , too much for the drive.....
I solved this (with help) by scaling the tach output.
In the end i did not finish a full three axis setup, but i was satisfied that the digital replacement would be a good choice.
If i was doing a complete servo drive change i would consider removing the tachometers from the factory servos and replacing them with digital encoders.
Think encoders have fewer maintenance issues and might provide better overall servo performance.
There is space in the servo enclosure , would require mounting and additional cable to the electrical cabinet....
The Digital servos are a bit pricey. Costing around $1000.00 per axis when i bought these several years back....Analog units would be more cost effective, but would not have the tuning software and might need hardware component (resistors) changes to tune the servo action .
For me the digital setup was worth the extra.


Hope some of this is of value
Cheers Ross
 
The term catalytic refers to a chemical reaction that requires a catalyst in order to get the reaction to take place.

Correct. Catalysts and catalysis have nothing to do with capacitors or electrolytic capacitors. So in post #12 you should have written "electrolytic" not "catalytic".
 
Ballen,

That's what happens from time to time when your 75 years old.

As you can see I know the difference - I just had a brain fart.

Paul
 
Hi Ross,

Thanks for all the good input.

I started out as a job shopper 40+ years ago.
When times got tough around here (will the last person
leaving Seattle please turn out the lights), I went
back to the University and got my engineering degree.
I worked for Boeing designing flight controls (autothrottle,
autopilot,...etc.) for the rest of my career. I have been
retired for 26 years.

No I'm not looking to start a job shop. I have a Brother TC22A
CNC that will cut ar 700+ ipm, rapids at 2200 ipm, and tap at 8,000 rpm.
It has a 26 tool ATC, and will do a tool change in .7 sec..

I have a Gorton I-22 for my manual mill, but the hydraulic on Z
just gave out. So I'm looking for a good, versatile manual mill
to fill it's place. The only reason I'm looking at a FP * NC is
because of the 6300 rpm spindle. I wont be using the machine in
CNC mode. I had the Gorton Z rebuilt once. I mainly use my machines to
help in the rebuild and maintenance of my other machines. I am a
75 year old hobby guy who likes to putter around and invent things.

I had a 1982 Lagunamatic 310, but the Dynapath control crapped
because of the bad capacitors, and I just didn't think it was worth
a retrofit, or the effort to fix it.

There are benefits to going digital, for one thing
you don't have to worry about analog drift or aging components
(until they die, that is).

The reason that thought about going to Centroid is that in
my area of Washington state, we have a very knowledgeable
retro-fitter. Also the Centroid documentation is exceptional.

I don't know anything about the dialog or Heidenhain controls.
Do they have retrofit controls that they expect the end user
to install? (and the great documentation, in english, to go along
with it?

So many questions so few answers, life is short!

Paul
 
Paul:
Thanks for the profile.
Reading through your reply it strikes me that perhaps you might look at this differently.
Were it me in your position, and knowing what i know now, i would be looking for a "Running" Deckel FP-NC....
I would go for a good FP4NC with a working Dialog4 control.
Here is why:
First off i believe, having had all three, that the FP4NC is the better out of the FP2NC,FP3NC or FP4NC group. Just little detail differences in the machine's structure that give it an edge....
Working down, my next choice would be an FP3NC...Again detail improvements make it better than the "2"


You clearly don't need a high performance (as in "fast") CNC machine, so not sure what going to a retrofit will buy you at the outset if you find a machine that is running currently.
The Dialog control is quite robust...not super featured, but capable and pretty reliable. Would guess that a guy with your history knows someone who is good with electronics.
The boards on the Dialog are built with discrete components, and pretty repairable. The "Orange Book" has component level schematics for almost all the boards so repairs by someone who
is electronics savvy should not present a huge issue....A currently running machine/control with some electronic repairs (as needed) could easily run for years.

Betting if you had a chance to run the machine with the Dialog control you would like it. The operators panel and layout IMO are the best ever fit to a CNC machine...makes doing simple tasks a
snap. I have an FP4NC at work and though there are other mills available , even for simple work like drilling a hole, i use the Deckel.....Haven't run the manual Kondia that sit next to the Deckel in
about 10 years....the Deckel is just as easy (more so if you count the power drawbar on the Deckel)

The worst that could happen in time is the control becomes un-repairable and then you need to go for the retrofit.....Don't think you are going to pay a premium for getting a machine with a working
control.

I bought my FP4NC in 93'. It has run pretty much every day since. It has been rock solid reliable, being down for lost time perhaps a total of 10 working days since purchase.
My machine is fitted with the Dialog4 control. Again think this is the best of the Dialog controls. Lots of information here and elsewhere on ills and fixes for this control.
Standard Dialog4 control has memory of 256K and can handle 9999 blocks of code...Has canned cycles for lots of common jobs..and is conversational (sort of) to program....

I would personally invite you to come by my shop, spend a day or so. Have a go with my machine and get a taste of the control and its use.....
Further, there is also a well fitted out FP3 (manual machine) here that you can also have a look at....Not for sale, but will give some hands on feel for that species as well.
My shop is a stones throw away from the "Napa/Sonoma Wine Country and the Redwoods of Muir Beach so it might be worth a mini vacation...just a thought.
Cheers Ross
 
Hi Ross,

Thank you for the invitation.

Thank you for the advise, as well.

With a dead control the seller couldn't ask to
much for the machine - after all it's just an anchor.
The cost to repair or retrofit should come out of the
asking price. With a new controller I would have a much
better machine. One thing hard about using the old
Dialog control is getting a Post for it. I don't hear many
good stories about that. I can get a good Post for
Bobcad and the Centroid control. Plus with the Centroid I
don't have to worry about the CRT or computer replacement parts -
all just standard PC stuff. At CNC cookbook they do a survey
of how people like their controls - Centroid came out very high
on their survey.

I have a question about how the Deckels would handle a boring job?

On a bridgeport, I would set the boring head to the OD, then setup
the depth stop on the quill, and go. It would stop at depth and I
would turn off the spindle and retract the quill. Would this have
to be done by CNC controll on the Deckel?

What are the all drawbacks of Deckels?

Paul
 








 
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