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Deckel Roll Engraving Attachment

Rich L

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 24, 2006
Location
Colorado
FOlks,

I have an opportunity to purchase a roll engraving attachment for use on my GK21 but I have a question that I'm not able to resolve with the seller; here are some facts:

The model of the attachment is 6020.

I have a "newer" GK21 model - the kind with the more boxy angles.

The manual that came with my machine does not list the 6020 as a prospective attachment but it does list models 6021, 6022, 6024, and 6025.

An older Operating Instructions manual lists the 6020 in addition to the 6021, 6022, etc. This manual says the 6020 is compatible with the GK21 (at least the ones made comtemporaneously with the GK21's made then.

Here's the real question, I think. Is the "newer" GK21 compatible with the 6020 even though the 6020 model is not mentioned in the manual that comes with the newer machine. This question revolves around whether or not the spindle fits properly into the "guide Bracket."

I hope that is specific enough for anyone with some experience in this to advise. I'd just like to know before I dump the money into a big "oops."

Cheers,
Rich
 
On the advice of those replying to this thread I went ahead and bought the device. Maybe I'll post some pics later as to its fitment so the next guy will have some information.

Cheers :)
Rich
 
Please do.
I actually have an application where, sooner or later, I will be wanting to make or have made some rolls that this sort of thing would work for- although I think I will end up getting Grant, ol "nakedanvil" to make them on his Haas with the cnc rotary table, as its so much quicker and easier.
(Grant Sarver makes most of the blacksmithing tools in america these days, alone in his backyard shop with a few cnc and manual machines- 30,000 pairs of tongs, last I heard- along with all kinds of texture and patterning tools).
But the concept of roll engraving is one I am quite interested in, and I do have a Gorton pantograph over in the corner that could mebbe do it....
 
The 6024/6025 needs an optional Riser Block to be used with the GK21's. All others can be used as is and, with an adaptor ring that used to be standard equipment, on the smaller GK12/G1L spindles.

The 6020 (100 mm dia. max.) has been super seeded by the 6022 (150 mm). If the rack and pinion are metric, just substitute them with locally made stuff. Some users took the steel band and disc of the 6021 so they could quickly turn a disc to the circular pitch diameter of the averaged engraved letter height. less one band thickness.
--
Arno
 
I promised some pictures as I got this thing installed --- All was easy except I had to make a "collet" to snug up the engraver spindle housing to the top bearing assembly on the attachment. This model 6010 attachment came with a 38mm ID collet that evidently fit one of the larger KF engravers (from whence this attachment came) but the GK21 requires a 42mm ID collet. Not hard to make - it had 1mm threads and a 7:1 taper. The three dimensions of movement are remarkably smooth as one might expect but when you get it all hooked up some minor load adjustment is needed to remove the notchiness feel of the small gear on the rack. This one also came with a large 100 tooth gear and I suppose the feel would be smoother but I haven't tried it yet. Also, with the bigger gear there is less clearance for the drive rope as that would hit the attachment housing if one tried to engrave on a small diameter piece. As you can see in one picture there is only about a cm clearance from the rope with the small gear and an end mill hanging down about as far as I dare.

There was some guy a while back selling on ebay what he thought were roll engraving gears but upon inquiry I found out that the thickness and hole were different from what I had. This attachment has gears that are 10mm thick with a shoulder around the hole and have a 12mm hole with keyway. His have what he measured to be about a 16 mm hole (for some reason he didn't know how to measure metric!). So if anyone was looking at those ... maybe they are for a different model attachment.

I found this attachment to be a real treat to play with and just a remarkably well engineered and manufactured piece of equipment - as expected from Deckel. Bearings everywhere and a cute little Deckel chuck. But, if you get one of these, be prepared to do some arithmetic to sort out the turning ratios.

Cheers,
Rich
 
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"There was some guy a while back selling on ebay what he thought were roll engraving gears but upon inquiry I found out that the thickness and hole were different from what I had."

Rich L:
was this Mullin machinery by chance? I was at his place earler this year and he tried to sell them to me. I measured them and they are not Deckel gears. They measure .375 thick and .625 bore. I belive they are some change gears from a Hardinge.

Todd
 
This one also came with a large 100 tooth gear and I suppose the feel would be smoother but I haven't tried it yet.

To do accurate work on the circumference of a cylinder, you need a gear with a pitch diameter of the mean depth at which you are engraving.

The first thing customers would do with a cylindrical roll engraving attachment was to replace the metric rack and gear with locally supplied inch rack and gears (about 1/20 of the corresponding Deckel prices).

Quite a few bought the band roller of the 6021 taper attachment as a spare part and adapted it to the fixed one. This way, for every circular pitch required they would just turn a disc to size on a lathe.
--
Cheers,
Arno
 
If anyone needs one I have one for sale
But with the cheap dollar the US is not a country we sell a lot to lately:D

Peterve

12073212020.jpg
 
Rich L:
was this Mullin machinery by chance? I was at his place earler this year and he tried to sell them to me. I measured them and they are not Deckel gears. They measure .375 thick and .625 bore. I belive they are some change gears from a Hardinge.

Todd

Todd,

T'was Mullin.

Rich
 
Rich,

I don't know anything about the pantograph and this attachment, but in regards to your issues with clearance of the rope belt drive.... could you not rotate the whole roll engraving attachment 90º and then have the rope drive approaching from perpendicular to the axis of the chuck and tail stock? This would allow you to drop the spindle in deeper and engrave smaller diameters.... I think.... LOL!
 
.... could you not rotate the whole roll engraving attachment 90º and then have the rope drive approaching from perpendicular to the axis of the chuck and tail stock? This would allow you to drop the spindle in deeper and engrave smaller diameters....

The attachment can be rotated and I've had it that way as an experiment. A few factors determine if that orientation is viable and they include the roll ratio and the pantograph ratio, diameter of workpiece, etc. I found that rotating the attachment 90º can limit the available excursion of the mill or tracer on their respective tables depending on these ratios because the attachment sort of gets in the way between the tables. It seems as though the best flexibility in all this is with the attachment mounted as in the picture and it also fits nicely on the work table in this arrangement. However, using a big gear will definitely force me to rethink what I'm planning to do. Appreciate the thought, though, it does permit options.

Cheers,
Rich
 
Rich,
Since you are not using it the way Deckel designed it, you just have to do what works best for you.

Here is a page from the Operators Manual. Send me a direct eMail if you want a PDF of that.

Arno

 
Rich,
Since you are not using it the way Deckel designed it

Arno,

That made me sit up! I guess I don't see why you say I'm not using it the way Deckel designed it as page 8 of the same manual shows it mounted either way. For what I'm doing it seems to work out better mounted as in the drawing left middle (tailstock in my face and gear under the rope drive). Attached is the page I'm referencing - you clearly have that, but for the benefit of the others...

So, forgive me, but you've got me puzzled.

Cheers,
Rich
 
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That made me sit up! I guess I don't see why you say I'm not using it the way Deckel designed it
Rich,

That referred to not using a gear matching the pitch diameter of the job to be cut.

If the proper diameter is used, the ratio selected will match the spacing of the letter templates or artwork selected.

For typical letter engraving the longitudinal axis of the attachment would be parallel to the ways on the machine column ( like an X axis) with the type holder oriented in an in-and-out (Y axis) position.

If you only have two gears I guess you could create an Excel template to just plug in the (average depth) diameter of the job, the pitch diameter of the gear used and the letter to letter spacing on the template holder.
--
Regards,
Arno
 
Rich,

That referred to not using a gear matching the pitch diameter of the job to be cut.

If the proper diameter is used, the ratio selected will match the spacing of the letter templates or artwork selected.

Arno,

Ah, of course, and that was a deficiency in the selection of gears I got with the machine. Thanks to "ow2knives" I'm now the proud owner of three various size gear blanks so I can make what I need. I can deal with the mismatch in roll ratio as I'm engraving artwork that does not depend on a specific ratio at hand because I have the ability to adjust the copy pattern to compensate.

Now I understand what you're saying. I just chalk it up to "innovation beyond the Deckel design."

Cheers,
Rich
 
I am bringing this thread back (I know it is old) to contribute some information and also ask for some help and suggestions. About a year ago I bought a Deckel GK12 and it came with two roll engraving attachments. One is marked GVW 100 and the other is a 6021.

The 6021 is the one that does cylindrical and tapered roll engraving and fortunately it came complete and in working order.

IMG-1402.jpg


The GVW 100 which appears to be the same as the a 6020 is also complete BUT the linear bearings in the arm that attaches to the spindle are missing the balls and cages.

IMG-1405.jpg

The roll engravers came with the original manual which I will scan and share if any one wants it, but the manual does not have any information about the linear bearings.

The bearings on the base of the roll engraver are functioning and of the same type as those in the arm that links to the spindle, just larger. the following is a picture of the balls and cage of that bearing. Does anyone have this roll attachment that is willing to measure the diameter of the balls and dimensions of the cage for the two linear bearings I need to fix?

IMG-1387.jpgIMG-1388.jpg
IMG-1406.jpg
 
You are right, GVW100 was the name before thwy switched to 14 digit IBM numbers.

I am not absolutely certain but those balls should be 1/4" or5/16"; definitely not metric dimension.

When you have it apart, polish the Vee's a little to make sure there are no hardened grease spots on the ways.
 
Do yourself a favour and mike out the balls in any case.

If your GK spindle has individual ball in fibre cages, those will definitely be inch dimensions.

By the end of the decade they were nearly twice the price. (IIRC by then there were built in Swtzerland, just like the GK-12.
 








 
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