Deckel Spindle Warmup & Temp

Harri89 · Jan 27, 2022

Hello!

What is the normal spindle temperature for Deckel FP4A or similar, for running at maximum RPM?

What kind of spindle/machine warmup process are you folks doing?

I'm having some problems with z-axis thermal growth.
Tool holders tend to seize hard in to the taper, and tool holders also getting quite warm.

Thanks

Colt45 · Jan 27, 2022

Is that a 3150rpm spindle or 6300rpm flip head machine?

Not uncommon for the 3150 spindles to get fairly warm, but I was told if the head casting is "too hot to hold your hand on for more than a few seconds", it's likely time to repack the needle bearings or rebuild the spindle. The 6300rpm spindles (angular contact bearings) run significantly cooler, if you have one of those overheating, then you likely have problems that need to be addressed immediately.

Harri89 · Jan 28, 2022

My machine is with 4000rpm spindle.

The mechanical drawings shows angular contact bearings. To my eye, also some roller Bearings, but i dont know, if they are with separate bearing races.

Harri89 · Jan 28, 2022

Drawings from spindles.

AlfaGTA · Jan 28, 2022

Think Colt45 is correct....the needle roller spindles can run warm at top chat,,,
Factory says that 130*f is fine for these.
The angular contact setups run a bit cooler.
Changing cold holders into an already hot spindle can cause sticking issues for sure.

The drawings you posted show angular contact ball bearings.
Would agree with "colt" that if its getting too warm to touch then it needs some attention.
Can you tell if both (horiz/vert) spindles are running the same temp and having the same tool release issues?
Think i would take a look at that first.

Unfortunately disassembly is a bit more problematic than the needle roller spindles....drawing suggests some special press tooling might be needed.
Might be worth a note to someone like Frantz Singer to see what an overhaul would cost...

Cheers Ross

Harri89 · Jan 29, 2022

Im operating vertical head 99% of time, the horizontal spindle warms up more. I can hold my hand on it, but its not comfortable...

Gloryrates500 · Jan 30, 2022

This is the spindle temperature of my FP4A after about 90 minutes at 4000 rpm

AlfaGTA · Jan 30, 2022

Would guess that the above temps indicate some wear on the bearings with a subsequent reduction in preload....(temp is a bit lower than i would expect given everything is in good order) but it might be normal, would deffer to
the German pros .

So how does it preform with long extensions while boring.....acceptable surface finish in hard materials? Bore produced is circular...and straight, yes?

Cheers Ross

Harri89 · Jan 30, 2022

Gloryrates500 said:
This is the spindle temperature of my FP4A after about 90 minutes at 4000 rpm

View attachment 340912

What's the temperature at horizontal spindle / front portion of Y-axis?

Gloryrates500 · Feb 1, 2022

Horizontal spindle after 3 1/2h vertical processing at 3150 rpm.
The image of the vertical spindle was taken in 42CrMo4 after processing with a D2 convex milling cutter.

Harri89 · Feb 12, 2022

I measured the temperature close to the spindle nose at the casting.

After 2h of running ar 4000rpm
Horizontal 50-50.5C°
Vertical ~ 38C°

Harri89 · Feb 14, 2022

Today 3 hours of running behind, temps keep getting higher!
Horizontal 55C°
Vertical 47C°

It seems that Y axis is coming tighter when it warms. Tools are hot to touch.

Someone has used to much preload ?

I had a quote for new bearings, 280e each.

They doesnt come with grease in them. Kluber NBU15 is a go to spindle grease?

AlfaGTA · Feb 14, 2022

Harri89 said:
I had a quote for new bearings, 280e each.

They doesnt come with grease in them. Kluber NBU15 is a go to spindle grease?

Maybe too much grease...
280 does not seem high for real precision bearings.....Pair of spindle bearings (Gamet tapered roller bearings) for my Harrison 1330 CNC lathe was quoted around $2500,00 for the pair....

Cheers Ross

Harri89 · Feb 14, 2022

How could i know if too much grease is the problem?
Grease didnt come out of the horizontal spindle today, and still gets to high temp.

Best option might be to just replace the bearings and not try to salvage them?

AlfaGTA · Feb 14, 2022

Spindle bearings like those should (by guess) filled about 1/3 the available space....New or old....
You are spot on on the lube...Perhaps someone has been in there before and repacked then with ?????????
Cheers Ross

Gloryrates500 · Feb 15, 2022

Many years ago, I had an insightful conversation with a DECKEL fitter in this regard.
It's about the two sight glasses on the side of the Y-axis (FP4A)
Sight glass "A" may only be filled up to the line! During operation, the oil runs from this reservoir to sight glass "B"
There, the oil level must never rise above the line!!!
Similar to the picture, it usually looks quite empty. But it is only important that a little oil level is visible in "B".
If you look at it during operation, it changes the oil level.
As soon as there is too much oil in area "B", it runs to the horizontal spindle bearing and washes out the grease filling there.
When filling area "A" only small amounts should be added (20ml syringe) and the level observed at the sight glass. It rises very slowly and you need some patience.
Machine operators often think that sight glass A must first be filled until the oil in sight glass B rises noticeably.
This is an error that can lead to problems with the horizontal spindle bearing.

Harri89 · Feb 15, 2022

This is how it looks before running the machine.
When the spindle is turning, oil level in the rear sight glass lowers and the front sight glass level stays about the same

Gloryrates500 · Feb 17, 2022

Attached are the pictures of both sight glasses after about 1 hour at 4000rpm.
Hopefully you can see the oil level in sight glass B.
Temperatures are similar to previously posted FLIR shots - at 27-28°C

Harri89 · Feb 17, 2022

Can you get a picture of your oil levels when the machine isnt been run yet and oil has settled. Maybe next day or so?

Gloryrates500 said:
Attached are the pictures of both sight glasses after about 1 hour at 4000rpm.
Hopefully you can see the oil level in sight glass B.
Temperatures are similar to previously posted FLIR shots - at 27-28°C

View attachment 342297

View attachment 342298

Gloryrates500 · Feb 18, 2022

The filling level in A does not change noticeably and in B the quantity increases noticeably but only slightly.
I think from the temperatures measured, the grease from your bearings seems to be influenced by the high levels in sight glass B.
Maybe you should check that to be safe...

Deckel Spindle Warmup & Temp

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