Deckel Toolholder Question: Starting from Scratch
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  1. #1
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    Default Deckel Toolholder Question: Starting from Scratch

    As far as I know, for the standard vertical head on a Deckel FP1 or FP2, etc., there are three main options for the drawbar and its connection to tool holder:

    1) S20 x 2mm buttress thread female socket on the drawbar, original to Deckel
    2) M16 male threaded end on the drawbar
    3) 5/8" x 11 TPI male threaded end

    If you were starting from scratch so to speak, with a Deckel mill which had little in the way of tooling, which drawbar would make the most sense to go with? I have the impression that changing out the drawbar is simple enough to do, but is not something one would want to be doing frequently as it requires some head disassembly (?)

    Years ago if you were in the US, obtaining Deckel S20x2mm tool holders would have been a bit more difficult that it is today. I get the sense though that the range of tool holding out there will be more limited in the Deckel standard. I imagine M16 internal thread on the tool holder would be most common, and have the greatest range of options? Or is it really no issue?

    Is keeping the machine 'stock' with whatever drawbar it came with somehow meaningful in terms of future resale value, or not?

    Does one of those standard drawbars have any special mechanical advantage over the others, or is more durable, or reliable?

    If one moves away from the Deckel S20 x 2mm buttress thread, then does one also forgo the close collet system for the machine?

    Just groping away here in the dark, trying to make sense of things..
    Last edited by Chris Hall; 10-27-2019 at 12:28 PM.

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    I think I would first look at what kind of #40 tooling you already have.
    With both a FP3NC and now a FP3 I want to be able to share tooling. I use mostly the CNC #40 tooling so with just a change of the pull stud it will work with either Deckel machine. I can also use the tooling in other CNC and manual mills (different draw bar). Also you will have a huge selection of used tooling at good prices.
    The pull studs come in both inch and metric with the Deckel 20 x 2mm buttress thread on the other end. They are not that expensive and you really only need a few. Change of the pull stud is quick and easy.
    The FP3 came with a Falcon tooling system and I will use that on all the mills as well. I already had some of that tooling and it came with a bunch more. The only down side to it is you lose a little Z.
    In my opinion at least for the FPNC machines the versatility of tooling options is a big plus.

    10 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 auf 5/8-11 Zoll NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine

    Andy

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    One other thing that by staying with the Deckel 20 x 2mm buttress thread draw bar you will be able to use Deckel specific tooling. Things like the setup bar, trammel and #40 collets are hard to find with other ends.

    I would like to get one of the trammels.

    Andy

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    What does a Deckel trammel look like and how is it utilized? A search for that term turned up nothing of value.

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    Not sure what Deckel or others call it. It is just a set of trammels mounted to a Deckel #40 tool end.

    I often do a class of one off work that I could use one of them for.

    I'll see if I can find a photo.

    Andy

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    A quick google didn't turn up any photos but there are photos in the manuals and catalogs.

    So say you have to make a round (OD) part with a lot of mill, drill / bore and tread features. Mount some square stock in the vise do all of the work on the mill centered. After all the other operations are done use the trammel to scribe the OD. pull the part band saw to rough it and finish in the lathe. The trammel tool can be moved around using the accuracy of the mill / DRO and no center point on the work is needed.

    Andy

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    So it is a scribing tool akin to dividers, yes? I'm familiar with a beam trammel.

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    Mostly agreeing with Andy. In the states CAT40 is probably the most readily available tooling that easily adapts to your mill. I'd leave the drawbar alone so you can use Deckel tooling and get the right pull studs to use CAT40.

    Might want to make or buy the right adapter plate for CAT40. That's been discussed in a couple threads and it seems most feel it optional.

    Teryk



    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy St View Post
    I think I would first look at what kind of #40 tooling you already have.
    With both a FP3NC and now a FP3 I want to be able to share tooling. I use mostly the CNC #40 tooling so with just a change of the pull stud it will work with either Deckel machine. I can also use the tooling in other CNC and manual mills (different draw bar). Also you will have a huge selection of used tooling at good prices.
    The pull studs come in both inch and metric with the Deckel 20 x 2mm buttress thread on the other end. They are not that expensive and you really only need a few. Change of the pull stud is quick and easy.
    The FP3 came with a Falcon tooling system and I will use that on all the mills as well. I already had some of that tooling and it came with a bunch more. The only down side to it is you lose a little Z.
    In my opinion at least for the FPNC machines the versatility of tooling options is a big plus.

    10 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 auf 5/8-11 Zoll NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine

    Andy
    Those pull studs do open up a greater range of possibilities. I imagine he also has them for M16.

    As for what I have now, as my current mill has a collet nut instead of a drawbar, the bit at the narrow end of the taper has been of no consequence. But the disadvantages of a collet nut have become obvious to me now.

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    Yes, as I wrote before both inch and metric.

    10 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 geschliffen mit Bund NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine

    Yes like dividers but without the need for a center point and with Vernier scale for accuracy. Plus very little clearance is needed.

    Andy

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    Does anyone on here have any experience with those pull studs linked above? What prevents them from unscrewing when the drawbar is unscrewed? Are they Loctite-bonded in place?

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    I've made 2 or three in the past, loctited them in place and they stayed there
    (Always wondered why one would buy such a part instead of make it....I guess people must be more busy or less cheap than me, or both )

    Regarding toolholding, I like the s20x2. But that's because I live in Europe and can easily get tooling. Test bars, 40 taper direct collets (though there are such for M16 as well), wohlhaupters, 355 collets, the scriber thing, the spring loaded center are nice and come at s20x2. If you have a few and can get the rest in cat40+stud, then I guess you have the best of both worlds.

    Br,
    Thanos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    Does anyone on here have any experience with those pull studs linked above? What prevents them from unscrewing when the drawbar is unscrewed? Are they Loctite-bonded in place?
    I do not have experience with Singer's pull studs, myself. As to why they don't pull out when unscrewing the draw bar, I think it has to do with the asymmetrical buttress thread form. They provide a strong surface for tightening but do not bind in release. A very slight counter rotation and the threads loosen.

    Wikipedia
    It is obvious on inspection that a buttress thread with perpendicular face, operating in a split nut, generates minimal disengagement force when tightened in the normally loaded direction, and thus it is possible to derive quick release devices
    I realize the pull studs are not operating in a split nut but I believe the behaviour is similar.

    Teryk

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Hall View Post
    Does anyone on here have any experience with those pull studs linked above? What prevents them from unscrewing when the drawbar is unscrewed? Are they Loctite-bonded in place?
    I've made 2 or three in the past, loctited them in place and they stayed there
    (Always wondered why one would buy such a part instead of make it....I guess people must be more busy or less cheap than me, or both )

    Regarding toolholding, I like the s20x2. But that's because I live in Europe and can easily get tooling. Test bars, 40 taper direct collets (though there are such for M16 as well), wohlhaupters, 355 collets, the scriber thing, the spring loaded center are nice and come at s20x2. If you have a few and can get the rest in cat40+stud, then I guess you have the best of both worlds.

    Br,
    Thanos

    Ps. Regarding changing drawbar, no head disassembly required at all. But you need a lot of room to pull that drawbar out, and there is a taper pin involved. Certainly not something you want to fo in a middle of a project!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mTeryk View Post
    I do not have experience with Singer's pull studs, myself. As to why they don't pull out when unscrewing the draw bar, I think it has to do with the asymmetrical buttress thread form. They provide a strong surface for tightening but do not bind in release. A very slight counter rotation and the threads loosen.



    I realize the pull studs are not operating in a split nut but I believe the behaviour is similar.

    Teryk
    That's fascinating! I hadn't apprehended the reason for the buttress thread, but it makes perfect sense.

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    I bought a set of S20x2 SK40 Weldon (side-in) holders (arbors) in 6, 8, 10, 12, (14?), 16, 20 and 25 mm from w-tool.de (Tobias Wahl).

    And I found a 32 mm arbor, Franz Singer sold new on eBay. Today I would probably also buy a set of new shell mill holders with wrenches.

    Newer arbors come with retainer nuts on. No need to use the retainer ring (that comes in two thicknesses, depending on if it's CAT40 or something else)

    Or why not just a set of OZ25 collets with two chucks? They are great - they grip better than ER40.

    You just never know what tooling you may find. And there are some nice, Deckel-specific things out there.(just search for Deckel Wars)

    (if you plan on using pull studs, then watch out. There are different kinds, some are too long, because they are made to nest in a recess)



    Cheers
    Erik

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    As far as the horizontal spindle goes, are there drawbar taper-end attachment options?

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    The question of tooling is pretty open.
    Seems everyone has their favorites, as do i.
    For the manual machines, i like the factory direct mounting collets. (#40) the reason is simple..they save valuable vertical height. Further the Deckel spindle
    being made using needle roller bearings that have no bearing preload (read as there is always radial play in the spindle) will produce more accurate work when
    working closer to the spindle.....the further out you mount tooling and cutters from the nose of the spindle the greater the bearing clearance will affect position and rigidity.

    Some variables here. If you own a machine that is fitted with optional long reach vertical head, then you might well look for some version of tooling that has a front closing
    collet system. The overhang of the long reach head makes getting to the drawbar (horizontal) a bit of a chore and makes the use of a front closing collet setup attractive. Not a huge fan of the larger "ER" collets as i believe the holding power is suspect...For small work (to 10mm) the ER16 is great and allows holding small drills and reamers.

    Deckel did offer their own front closing collet chuck, that uses a collet very similar to the TG100 family of collets. These chucks fit up to the normal 20x2.0 drawbar and will accept collets from 4-25mm.
    Sorry, no part number, not seen that printed anywhere, but the chucks are easily identified by the fitted drive tabs bolted to the chuck that engage the drive slots of the spindle....
    Interesting part here is that the collets for this setup used to be available form MSC here in the US in inch sizes , believe they were labeled "Accurate" ...







    Would interject here that ,at least in the US, the term "Pull Stud" is pretty much relegated to a button or knob style extension screwed into the end of a tool holder...used with machines (CNC) that have power gripping of said pull stud, and are machine specific.....

    What has been talked about in the above posts is really a threaded draw bar adapter, not as i understand the term "pull stud".....I know its a detail, but definitions matter when discussing technical information.

    Some additional thoughts:
    things like boring heads and drill chucks can easily be mounted to whatever holding system you choose. I use a straight shank (3/4") for my drill chuck. Hold it in a 3/4" collet (direct mounting)
    on my manual Deckels (FP2, FP3) Works fine and i have never had any issues with things slipping or spinning in the collet doing this....

    Was a time when getting the original Deckel collets was relatively easy even here in the US....Factory did make inch sized collets. There were also some pacific rim knock offs that circulated and were of acceptable quality.
    Today, here in the US, getting a full set of inch Deckel collets might be more difficult.

    Side note for FP-NC owners here....Singer offers an adapter sleeve that screws on to the standard Deckel direct mounted collet (20x2.0) that allows gripping with the normal NC power draw bar.
    This can provide for a shorter tool or fixture when height is at a premium....
    WARNING: grip may not be super strong..depends on the adjustment of your grippers... heavy cutting would not be recommended with this setup...but for things like indicating its great.

    Other reasons to retain the original draw bar is that it fits the Deckel horizontal arbors. A nice plus if you are needing to do any heavy horizontal milling.....


    Cat40 tooling , plentiful here in the US, would offer a nice choice of tooling. Shell mill holders, stub arbors for plain cutters, and end mill (Welden) styles would be useful.
    Personally, i would have (and do) an ER16 setup for small tools....bur for larger than 10mm i would opt for the TG100 collet setup over the ER system. My belief is that the TG collet offers superior
    holding power over the ER system....while not as compliant in closing on off sizes, the TG is stronger for holding end mills etc....

    Its OK to mix and match so long as you are setup where every holder fits without mucking about changing adapters and the like....the object is to be flexible and able to cover your work needs.
    The original draw bar is fine, i would retain it, and adapt what ever range of holders you acquire to that standard...That way when you trip over some special Deckel tool you can justify its purchase
    and use with zero issues.

    Cheers Ross

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    Some shots of the adapter used with the Deckel collets on machines having power draw bars (FP_NC, FP4MK)





    Here is a shot of my boring head (1" shank) held via Deckel collet , FP4NC. Done to gain head room.



    Cheers Ross

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    The OZ25 collet shown by Ross is called 462E, AFAIR.

    You click it onto the nut, put in the endmill and then thread it into the chuck.

    Collet sets for 1 - 25 mm shanks or just for standard endmill sizes. And the chuck shown looks like Deckel's own.

    Cheers
    Erik


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