Deckel Tooling On The Cheap

Degull · May 17, 2019

Hi everyone. I'm trying to make sense of all the different collet/tool holders that will fit my FP2. I would like to find a face mill arbor that I can fit my 80mm index face mill, like this one:
BAP 400R-80-27-6F Indexable Face Milling Cutter 6Flute + 10x APMT1604PDER Insert | eBay This face mill has a 27mm hole on the back of it. There are so many 40 tapers, I'm not sure where to start. I know that I can get M16 S20x2 pull studs, but which arbors will they fit into? There is SK40, NT40, BT40, DIN 69871, I'm sure that I'm missing a few. For instance, do all SK40 arbors have M16 threads in the small taper hole side?

bryan_machine · May 20, 2019

Degull - Aside from NMTB-40 which will have a theaded boss as the top, Cat-40, bt-40, Sk-40, all seem to vary by only 2 properties.
1. The size/thread of the drawbar/pullstud hole.
2. The size, shape, etc. of the tool changer flange.

See: Machine Tool Shanks (Tapers)

(Or machinery's handbook or various other references.)

AlfaGTA · May 20, 2019

Believe that Singer (Germany) sells adapter threads that will go from a standard "BT" or DIN69871 tool holder (M16) to the "Deckel" standard 20x2.0 buttress male thread that fits the standard Deckel manual
draw bar.....
Should be able to buy a normal BT or DIN 69871 face mill tool holder...fit the adapter thread and be good to go on your FP2.

Cheers Ross

Degull · May 20, 2019

Thanks guys, after much reading, I think that I have a handle on it now. For anyone else seeking the same info:
BT40 and SK40 tool holders both have M16 draw bar threads in the small taper end. M16 S20x2 pull studs are required on the small end of the BT or SK tool holders so that they may mate with FP2's draw bar. Cat40 tool holders have a 5/8-11 draw bar threads and require 5/8-11 S20x2 pull studs. Should also mention the BT40, SK40 and Cat 40 all require a 1MM adapter ring. Franz Singer has all of these items for sale:

5 Anzugsbolzen S20x2, Gewinde geschliffen NEU z.B. f. Deckel Frasmaschine
5 Anzugsbolzen S20x2 auf 5/8-11 Zoll NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine
Mitnehmerring 1 mm NEU z.B. fur Deckel Frasmaschine

I also came across a great youtube video that helped me understand the different tapers. Fast forward to the middle where he talks about his FP2.

YouTube

Andy St · Jul 3, 2019

Degull Thanks for those links. Which tooling is that ring for? I already knew about the different tapers and the adapter pull screws. I'm still curious about the adapter rings. Why did Deckel and maybe others use these? On the newer machines they use the normal male drive lugs on the spindle. Are there just two different rings?
Also on some machines you see the threaded holes for mounting face mills and other times you don't?

Andy

AlfaGTA · Jul 3, 2019

Think Deckel went with the notches in their spindle faces in opposition to the male lugs that became standard for lots of machines to limit the loss of head room.
Reason i believe was to compliment their normal #40 taper collet setup. There the collet sets virtually flush with the face of the spindle, having absolute minimal
consumption of valuable head room......
Male lugs would be a clearance issue of sorts...and that's why i believe they went with notches...The drive rings make up the difference when not using the direct collet setup, giving direct postitve
coupling for heavy cutting tools like horizontal arbors....

Cheers Ross

Andy St · Jul 3, 2019

AlfaGTA

As always you are spot on with that answer, thanks.

Andy

Degull · Aug 27, 2019

Just to follow up with this thread. I received and installed the Chinese SK40 face mill tool holder with the 1mm drive ring from Singer. It looks like there is noticeable gap in between the vertical head drive face and the face mill tool holder. The drive dogs are engaged fully on both sides but it looks like the drive ring could be at least a few more millimeters thicker.

The ring has enough clearance to move up and down.
Should I be concern with this gap?

thanvg · Aug 27, 2019

I don't think there is an issue. I have several holders with which the ring (the common ring, the other type) just rattles all around. Just annoying I guess

(Quite some stick-out that new holder you got....)

ballen · Aug 28, 2019

The fact that the 1mm drive ring is too thin is not a problem. The opposite situation (drive ring too thick, preventing the taper from seating fully) IS a problem. So when I use drive rings I generally check that the ring is free to wobble just before I take up the free play and tighten the drawbar.

Some tooling has some extra clearance (which for example permits regrinding of the outside taper if needed). Other tooling has very little clearance and a drive ring thicker than 1mm would prevent the tool from seating fully in the socket.

This thread (making my own 1mm drive rings) may be of interest Drive rings, to fit SK40 DIN69871 to a 1964 Deckel FP2 S20 x 2 spindle

AlfaGTA · Aug 28, 2019

Unless you have "Big Kaiser" dual contact tooling and spindle clearance flange to spindle nose=Good...
Interference at the flange=Trouble!!!
Cheers Ross

Degull · Aug 29, 2019

I didn't think it would be a problem but I thought I would ask. I understand that it is more important to have the tool holder completely held in the taper than the 1mm ring floating up and down a little.
The tool holder/face mill work very well together and very economical (less than $100 USD with a bunch of inserts). I'm not happy about how much vertical room is wasted but given the cost of the tool holder, cutter and inserts, I can't complain.

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