Deckels arrived with pics (dialog 2 question)
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    Default Deckels arrived with pics (dialog 2 question)

    Hello,

    Last week i bought two old deckel milling machines to increase my capacity.
    I have a lot of small series with simple contouring

    It's an 1982 FP4NC with dialog 2 control
    And an FP3A witch 2301 control, with tilting table.

    The idea is to sell the the fp4 and buy a fp4 witch contour 3 or dialog 4 control because i need the rs 232 connection.

    I know that with dialog 2 rs232 not possible is.
    But i've seen some advertisement from a fp3nc dialog 2 with rs 232 connection That isn't possible right, the rs 232 came from contour 2/ dialog 3

    Are those machines updated, with some new hardware or what did they do

    When it's possible to make read programs into te machine would really help me, because i get the drawings digital and then i program it with cam.






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    The FP3A is probably 1981 vintage. You have probably already figured this out, but in case not... it is really a manual machine that has a few simplistic CNC functions. One DC motor drives all 3 axis, so only one at a time can move. They are engaged via electric clutches at each screw...which are not ballscrews, just regular screws. So, straight line programs only.

    The problem with that model is it has nearly none of the advantages of true contouring CNC but has all the disadvantages...which are related to the fact that any bit of electronics goes out and the whole machine comes to a screeching halt until you fix the electronic component. So even though it is mostly a manual machine, it would be infinitely better (and way more valuable) if it was all manual machine as then it would last forever and you could repair any problems with it.

    But at least you got the ultimate table with it...probably worth it just for that table.

    Regarding the FP4NC, this can be updated to Dialog 3 at least and probably to Dialog 4... Deckel Doctor here has done this before...but I don't know exactly which new boards are needed.

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    Yes, if you want to sell one, sell the FP3A.
    Keep the FP4NC with Dialog 2. I like it, its very reliable and can do enough stuff for your purpose.
    You do not need RS232, just use the other connector with V24.
    See manual for that here:
    http://www.dialog5.com/downloads.htm
    (at bottom of page)

    I think the FP3A is extremely well made, better than the later machines, but unfortunately hardly a real CNC machine.

    See single servo here:

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    Also, the universal table that is on your FP3A appears to be the larger one that would fit perfectly on the FP4NC...so switch tables and sell the FP3A to some unsuspecting newbie

    Perhaps remove that doofus looking shop built coolant chip pan and throw it away first.

    Re the FP3A brochure photos...funny, I had forgot about that hydraulic mess jutting out at "V"... looks like an afterthought sort of "tacked on" at the last minute by Deckel engineers.

    Re Dialog upgrades, see last post in below thread...

    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...dialog+upgrade

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    Thanks for the good information,

    The FP3A is also from 1982,

    I know it the control can only do 1 axis at the time,
    But it it was the table from that machine what i needed the most. If the fp4 were with the tiliting table i didn't buy the fp3a , but that was also the part of the deal. i had to buy both machines to get a cheap price, if i bought only one the prices would be definitly higher. and less interesting.

    When the table fits, its maybe a good idea to sell the fp3a, but my first idea to sell the fp4 with dialog 2 and but another fpnc with dialog 4 contour 3 i'm still considering. The tilting table is smaller then the fixed table, so when i want to use 3 or 4 vises i have a problem.
    I have to buy a fixes table, better to keep the machine for a while (at this time i have space enough) And the price of the machine don't drop in 1 or two years dramaticly.And sometimes it's really handy when you an extra machine.

    To update i read the article milacron linked, you need the change the complete nc-boards and control unit. I think that's too much for this machine, When the machine was as good as new, i would consider it. but it's has been in production for a while so isn't a real beauty (at leat not a machine from a school) It's better to sell this machine and buy a another one. (or i have to find a parted out deckel somewhere) (i heard that Martin sometimes does)

    For communication , thanks martin that really helped out, gonna try it, i hope that the to less memory is gonna be a issue for my programs.

    For the rest, i don't know on which accuracy the machine can held. i have to check that first. For products when high accuracy needed i use my DMC70v instead, The machine are just for simple jobs. Products are now made on a CME FU1S, but that don't have a pinole, a real pain in the ass when you have a lot of drilling jobs. (and not good for z-axis)


    First clean the machine , adjusting gibbs,

    Are there things were i have to look for

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    I would like to have the FP3A for some experimental things.
    But what is it's RPM-range?

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    The rpm range from the FP3A is to 2500 is readed from the control panel.

    I never worked with this kind of deckel

    The control is by the way cnc 2101. Was a mistake, i think the experts already knew that.

    At the moment is really busy at the shop so don't have a lot of time to give attention to the deckels. It will been done, and i will update this post with photo's
    (a re-build cazeneuve is also waitng to get his forkardt chuck mounted en DRO)

    I don't know what i exactly gonna do with the deckels (selling or uing it)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin P View Post
    I think the FP3A is extremely well made, better than the later machines,
    Having owned two 1981 FP3A's and one 1989 FP2A I am mystified by that statement and with possible exception of the older FP3A having a moving horizontal quill, I would tend to conclude just the opposite. Can you explain in more details ?

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    Take a look at the spare parts catalog. There are a lot more parts and they are quite elaborate. Arguably unnecessary complications of doing stuff with 3 parts, where 1 one would suffice. I'd guess after the FP3A the business guys rushed in an said "you need to use 30% less parts" on the next machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin P View Post
    Take a look at the spare parts catalog. There are a lot more parts and they are quite elaborate. Arguably unnecessary complications of doing stuff with 3 parts, where 1 one would suffice. I'd guess after the FP3A the business guys rushed in an said "you need to use 30% less parts" on the next machine.
    Funny...that efficiency of design on the later machines is part of why I'm more impressed with them than the earlier machines. The 1989 FP2A is a marvel of engineering under the sheet metal. The machine was designed from the start to incorporate glass scales, limit switches, way covers and the exterior sheet metal itself in the neatest most logical fashion imagineable. No more "tacked on this, tacked on that" but a fully integrated CNC machine...with less parts needed.

    By your logic the braking system of a 1980's Rolls Royce is "better made" than any other auto braking system. To me, it's a terrible design that is vastly overcomplicated to accomplish the goal of braking properly with long term reliability.

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    Been workin on the fp3a for time because the fp4 has a defective axis-board..

    But i have to say. I really like the universal table and has saved me a lot time

    So i don't want to go back to a fixed table. So when i gonna sell the fp3a i really need a universal table for the fp4.

    Or a another fp4 with universal table. The FP3A table doesn't fit flawless on the fp4

    Does someone know what the table nr's are for a fp4 and what a reasonable price is for a serperat table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Mertens View Post
    The FP3A table doesn't fit flawless on the fp4
    It should be the same size table as was meant for the FP4NC....what is different about it that it won't fit flawless on the FP4NC ? T slots different distance ?

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    D:
    That table is the same as the one i have on my FP2 Aktive. His appears to not have the Heidenhain encoder but rather setup for the dividing plate rotary dividing. The "manual Machine" table has different mounting ...casting is a bit different to support the spacing used on the manual machines on the vertical table slots.

    Manuals use 45mm centers on the "T's" and they use a 12mm slot.

    The FP-NC's use a pitch of 63mm and a slot of 14mm.

    Table top is different there as well as it only has 5 slots that are 12 mm.
    CNC table has 7 slots of 14mm
    Believe there are also 8 slot versions of the CNC table.

    However think they all carry the same accessory number...someone will expand on the numbers i suppose, but i think they are all type 2038...
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    .

    Manuals use 45mm centers on the "T's" and they use a 12mm slot.

    The FP-NC's use a pitch of 63mm and a slot of 14mm.
    OK, so it is the T slot distance as I suspected. Even though I once owned two FP3A's of that vintage I never paid any attention to the table mount slots.

    Interesting that Deckel considered the FP3A's "manual" machines, but it makes sense really as I've been telling people here for years that the early 80's FP3A's were not to be thought of as CNC machines but rather manual machines with a few automated capabilities.

    Where it all falls apart of course is that they are manual machines totally dependant on electronics to function, such that a fully manual FP3 of similar vintage is an infinitely more desirable (and valuable...and less goofy looking, for that matter) machine.

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    Hmmh,

    Some of you have the progression of the machines in correct.

    The earliest "A" series machines had a motor for the X axis and a motor that was shared by the Y and Z Axis, and then a spindle motor.

    The next generation going forward toward 3 axis cnc had a drive motor for each axis, and usually had a Siemans servo drive with Gettys motors.

    The first point to point control was a 2101 then the next was 2301.


    This was my 3rd ever Heidenhain Conversion.












    I will make a seperate post later today or tomorrow.




    Regards
    DD

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    Diverging a bit from the original posting but I Believe that machine (shown above) now resides in the hands of a private individual who follows this board.
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by deckeldoctor View Post
    Hmmh,

    Some of you have the progression of the machines in correct.

    The earliest "A" series machines had a motor for the X axis and a motor that was shared by the Y and Z Axis, and then a spindle motor.

    The next generation going forward toward 3 axis cnc had a drive motor for each axis, and usually had a Siemans servo drive with Gettys motors.

    The first point to point control was a 2101 then the next was 2301.



    I am curious about that 1978 FP4A... never seen one of those before... was it like the FP3A and you added axis motors or did it have 3 axis motors already ? If the early FP4A had 3 axis motors, then the "progression" of the A series apparently depended on which FP size machine we are talking about.

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    Ross you are correct you know who know owns this machine I have posted about I have spoken to him a couple of times.

    I will post more about this machine in a separate post.

    DT this machine already had 3 axis motors, one for each axis, and the universal table displayed on the new Heidenhain 410 control as "C" axis.

    This machine also has the early "round head" 3150 rpm vertical spindle.

    Regards
    DD

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    Quote Originally Posted by deckeldoctor View Post

    DT this machine already had 3 axis motors, one for each axis, and the universal table displayed on the new Heidenhain 410 control as "C" axis.
    Interesting. So then the question becomes, was there an FP3A in 1978 with 3 axis motors, or was the FP3A of 1981 the first FP3A ?

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    The progression of deckels as I know them

    Manual machines.

    Active machines.

    2.5 axis machines, separate motor for x axis shared motor for y and z. Could have point to point control 2101 or 2301 or contour 2 ( Dialog 2),Dialog 1, Dynapth
    system 10, Dynapath system 20

    3 axis machines, with motor for each axis,Could have point to point control 2101 or 2301 or contour 2 ( Dialog 2),Dialog 1, Dynapth, system 10, Dynapath system 20,Dynapath Delta 20,Dialog3,Dialog4, Heidenhain 355,Siemans 3m,Siemans 8M, Contour 3 = Dialog 4, Fanuc 6M.

    I fore got Dialog 11,12

    From the Deckel factory!!

    4 axis

    4 axis with tool changer.

    4 axis tc and pallet machine.

    Horizontal machining centers with 22 pallet, pallet changers.

    PS8, 8 pallet magazine with DZ4 horizontal machining center.

    Flexible manufacture cells with pallet changers and automated guide vehicles shuttling pallets between machines back in 1983.

    "lean manufacturing" is nothing new!
    Un attended machining is nothing new!


    I would have to go back and look up some research as to exactly what happened when.

    This is the tip of the iceberg!

    Other variations of machines.

    Deckel branding SHW machines as their own FP5,FP6,FP7

    Regards
    DD


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