Decoding Deckel

I've been looking over on various European used equipment sites and there are a bewildering number of Deckel models. I'm finding this a bit confusing as there are so many models.

Besides the basics in terms of model line up,

FP1
FP2
FP3
FP33
FP4
FP5,

there are the innumerable additional letters after certain model designations.

I realize that '~M' likely means Manual control, while '~NC', means 'Numeric Control', but what about:

~A
~A/T
~MA
~L ("Long"?)
~V
~H
~LB
~LV
~Aktiv
~HT

There are likely more suffixes than I have listed above. What do they mean? It would be great if there was some kind of wiki breaking the models and their years of production, capacities, etc. down in some kind of list.

And how come there are FP2 and FP3 models with moving tables, and other FP2 and FP3 models in which the table is fixed and the head moves? Did they offer both kinds at the same time, or is one type a later version than the other?

""

Chris Hall said:

"

Hello darkness, my old friend
I've come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence​

"

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I think the issue is a number of us could answer your question but it would take too much typing to do so....plus we don't know how badly you need to know. If you could hone in on the few that are most mysterious to you that would help. What would be your ideal Deckel size and features ? i.e. do you want a all manual machine or a CNC ? Do you want an older manual one that is cheap or a newer manual one that is expensive ? Or do you want none of them and are just curious at all the model variations ? or ?

Fair enough - perhaps my question, naively asked, was altogether too broad.

Here's the deal: my Zimmermann pattern machine, which has been very useful to me over the past year, could use some rebuilding on its quill and spindle, among other things. The potential cost of that lead me to consider the idea of simply replacing the machine with an identical one of much newer manufacture. And there is such a machine for sale in Germany, 14 years newer than mine with some improvements to boot, like powered y-travel, for a reasonable price.

Then I got to thinking, as I learned more about Deckel, that it had some inherent design advantages over my machine. Like the milling head being lighter and smaller, like the additional horizontal spindle output, the vast array of options, the greater community of folks who own these machines and can share their knowledge - and the potential for 6300 rpm with the high speed head - so I started to consider that route. it would be a more expensive route, that seems clear.

I'm looking at a machine with the same or greater x-y-z capacities as the Zimmermann (750-500-400), and that seems to be the FP3. And then looking at that I see all kinds of different models and it gets confusing after a while. Some have moving heads and fixed tables while others do not. In some cases the differences, like 'NC' versus 'M' are obvious enough, but I don't know what they mean when they call one a FP3A, or FP3L, or FP3LV or FP3LB, etc..

I'm wanting a manual machine with maximal travel and high speed capacity. I will often mill wood, but also many other materials. I am under the impression that Deckels can be converted/modified to accept standard DIN 2080 SK40 tool holding, and can be fitted with power drawbars as well, but i don't know for sure and don't know how difficult or expensive this is to accomplish. After dealing with proprietary tool holding (NLA) on the Zimmermann, I'm looking to move away from that.

So, looking for more information to fill the picture in a bit I guess.

Chris Hall said:

I'm looking at a machine with the same or greater x-y-z capacities as the Zimmermann (750-500-600), and that seems to be the FP3. And then looking at that I see all kinds of different models and it gets confusing after a while. Some have moving heads and fixed tables while others do not. In some cases the differences, like 'NC' versus 'M' are obvious enough, but I don't know what they mean when they call one a FP3A, or FP3L, or FP3LV or FP3LB, etc..

Click to expand...

I don't have time to type much now but can tell you that even knowing the model doesn't necessarily tell all you need to know. You need to know the YEAR as well...for example a 1981 FP3A is a whole 'nuther animal from a 1989 FP3A. The 1981 version looks manual/ CNC but is really just a point to point machine with only one axis drive and if anything ever goes wrong with the NC portion, then it is unusable as a manual machine also and becomes a statue. This makes it officially the most worthless Deckel ever made IMHO.....but I have seen retrofits of them where they salvaged the thing but that gets info a lot of money to do it right since you need 3 new servo axis motors, new mounts for same, a means to change the spindle gearing, etc, etc.


A 1989 FP3A, OTOH, would typically have a Dialog 11 control with color monitor and be a full CNC machine. But then that's not so great either as the D11 control costs a fortune to repair unless you DIY. (with ZERO schematics available). So, better, might be a 1988 FP3A with Dialog 4 control...at least there you would have good community support and schematics for the boards...If you don't mind a display that looks like you might be playing "Pong" on it

"A" is about the same as "NC" after about 1982, just with a little less memory and maybe a minor function or two, and the machine not made quite as heavy duty as the NC machines.

FP3L is simply an all manual bed design where the whole body travels in X rather than the table slide (therefore way more part weight capacity) FP3LV....same thing but more travel. Enough for now

Btw, as long as your list is, it is still missing quite a bit. The Deckel FP4, FP4M and FP4MK for example are all 3 very different manual mills....with the only commonality being the "4" in the model name ! The FP4MK is the Holy Grail....but be prepared to spend at least $40,000 for a decent one ! The Deckel FP4M is the most common of the 1980's generation of manual Deckel mills. Probably because it was the least expensive for it's size as it had a manual feed gearbox and no horizontal quill.

And to further drive the Deckel newbie crazy, an FP4MK is labeled FP4M on it's nameplates ! The only place you find the "K" is in the electrical schematics book. But the M and MK look very different to the trained Deckel eye, so no problem for us...but might be for you.

If you really need that workenvelop of XYZ 750-500-600 the FP3 comes short with 500-300-380mm
The FP3L or FP2L comes closest with 800-300-400mm
If you need a decent Y travela Mikron WF3SA is a good alternative with 500-500-380mm
I happen to have one for sale

Peter

Oh, the 600 z-travel was a typo - should be 450mm.

Is the ~A and ~Aktiv the same thing?

Chris Hall said:

Is the ~A and ~Aktiv the same thing?

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No-there are 2 "-A" machines--some are CNC, with contouring and canned cycles, can run programs. Other -A models function more like the Aktiv machines- there is a single feed motor used for all 3 axis (each axis is engaged one at a time via electric clutches) instead of a dedicated servo/motor for each axis like on the CNC -A and NC models.
Aktiv machines are manual machines, with power feeds, came from the factory with DRO and have form of control where you can command "point to point", but only one axis at a time and no contouring.

Colt45 said:

No-there are 2 "-A" machines--some are CNC, with contouring and canned cycles, can run programs. Other -A models function more like the Aktiv machines- there is a single feed motor used for all 3 axis (each axis is engaged one at a time via electric clutches) instead of a dedicated servo/motor for each axis like on the CNC -A and NC models.
Aktiv machines are manual machines, with power feeds, came from the factory with DRO and have form of control where you can command "point to point", but only one axis at a time and no contouring.

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Except for aforementioned 1981 FP3A, which is point to point only....but after 1982, yes, "A" are full CNC. As far as I know there were not "other" A models like this...the 1981 FP3A was a unique machine (in a bad way, as it turns out, but seemed reasonable at the time I guess)

Activ is simply a unique DRO Heidenhain made from about 1978 to 1990* that has an electronic stop dog feature, where you can program the axis move instead of using mechanical dogs to stop it. In fact "Activ" is not a Deckel model designation at all, but rather a Heidenhain feature. Deckels that have the Active DRO are often referred to as Activ machines just as a convenient way for others to know they are last generation machines with DC axis drives. In other words there are FP3 Deckels and there are FP3 Activ Deckels....but they are both really FP3 mills... just that the 'Activ' one has some design changes and most importantly, DC variable speed axis feeds rather than previous gear box drive.

Also, FWIW, Heidenhain will not repair an Activ DRO.....or release the schematics....so be careful there.

==================

*And to further confuse, the first Activ DRO's (TNC 111) were metric only (1978-1980) and rarely imported into the USA. Deckels were still imported to the USA in that time period but they were outfitted with a non Active DRO that had an inch function. It wasn't until the 1981 model year the first inch/metric Activ DRO (TNC113) was available.

You will occasionally find a metric only Activ Deckel in this country for sale, but it is usually, if not always, a machine that was brought here by a European company transferring some of their used Euro machinery to a USA division.

Hi Chris,

I am far from an expert, but here are a few comments that might help. I agree that a Wiki for entries on each machine type would be very helpful.

~A
~A/T I think T means "Toolchanger"
~MA
~L ("Long"?)
~V
~H
~LB I think LB means Long Bed. The work table is part of the base and remains fixed while the vertical column slides back and forth along it.
~LV
~Aktiv I think this refers to a machine with a "extended" DRO that can autofeed then stop at a marked point
~HT

Click to expand...

Sorry I can't decode others.

Cheers, Bruce

I think the ~L means 'long', but the LB and LV I'm still unclear. There was also a FP3LG model:

Chris Hall said:

I think the ~L means 'long', but the LB and LV I'm still unclear. There was also a FP3LG model:

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I think LV is "very" long.....but that almost seems too obvious since I doubt they would have been thinking in English.

Speaking of L Deckels, member Sneebot pointed out the below to me recently....neither of us have ever seen an FP4L before....and this one even has power drawbars. At 11,000 lbs a monster....

Deckel FP4L Frasmaschine 3 Achs Digitalanzeige Heidenhain | eBay


Guess they figured at that size, no point of an X axis hand wheel, as you'd have to be Superman to turn it.....power feed only. OTOH, I once owned a Cincinnati Milacron no. 4 mill of similar weight where the Z lever was actually easier to turn by hand than a Bridgeport mill....so it can be done.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cinn1.jpg

Sheesh, thought I'd done a lot of searching prior to buying a FP3L, amd have seen LV's and LBs as well as Activ versions, but have never seen or heard of a LG version. And now an FP4L? Aaargh. About as bad as the one Sean showed of a Deckel jig boring table adapted to bolt to a FP3 machine. Odd.

On the very off chance someone's selling FP3L tables, I'm interested in the adjustable version and the regular table extension casting.

Lucky7

(And I'd love to see an FP4L working)

Milacron said:

Except for aforementioned 1981 FP3A, which is point to point only....but after 1982, yes, "A" are full CNC. As far as I know there were not "other" A models like this...the 1981 FP3A was a unique machine (in a bad way, as it turns out, but seemed reasonable at the time I guess)

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I stand corrected....was looking thru a 1981 vintage Deckel brochure today and damned if there wasn't an FP4A as well. There was also, unlike the FP3A, an FP4NC, which had 3 separate axis motors for full CNC functions like contouring. Ironically, what it didn't have was a CRT screen on the more elaborate otherwise control !

There was also FP41A and FP42A.....both were "L" and "LV" versions with point to point controls. And here again there were full CNC versions....the FP41NC and FP42NC with the same antique CNC3301 control with no CRT screen.

FWIW, here's the scoop on the MA model....there was also an ME !

Deckel NC Milling Machine Web Site - FP4A / FP4MA

Deckel NC Milling Machine Web Site - FP4ME

Thanks to PM member Martin for this obscure info.


Seems to me Deckel went overboard sometimes, creating machines that didn't really need to exist. And we haven't even gotten into all the controls that didn't need to exist on a Deckel...like the Hurco, Siemens controls....and the occasional Fanuc control !

Milacron said:

Guess they figured at that size, no point of an X axis hand wheel, as you'd have to be Superman to turn it.....power feed only.

Click to expand...

No


Peter

lucky7 said:

Sheesh, thought I'd done a lot of searching prior to buying a FP3L, amd have seen LV's and LBs as well as Activ versions, but have never seen or heard of a LG version. And now an FP4L? Aaargh. About as bad as the one Sean showed of a Deckel jig boring table adapted to bolt to a FP3 machine. Odd.

On the very off chance someone's selling FP3L tables, I'm interested in the adjustable version and the regular table extension casting.

Lucky7

(And I'd love to see an FP4L working)

Click to expand...

Universaly adjustable angelar table for Deckel FP3L | Veltman Machines
Thats mine And I believe I have a extension too
I take some picks tomorrow

Peter

Peter from Holland said:

No

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LOL...ok, they figured you'd have to be StretchMan....that is interesting....

I've never heard of an "H" or "HT" Deckel. Do you know what model that was associated with ?

One is tempted to think "horizontal" machining center, but the only Deckel HMC I am aware of was the DZ4 and the FP5C.