Dialog 4 - Drip Feeding

Yes, its that old question again !

I've been away from the forum for some time, but recently drip-feeding (or the lack of) has now become an issue for me.
I have searched all the old posts and found pieces of good information in various places, some dating back 3 years. Therefore I would like to get this topic up to date and at least have a solution that will work. Please put forward all successful ideas but try to hold back on 'ideas' that haven't been proven.

It appears Ross is the only one to have any success with this ? We have our own 3d cad/cam software (not SurfCAM) which we can use and do use, but the problem is with the very special file handling software used for this very unique DNC system. Our own RS232 comms software works fine with simple files that will fit into the 256k memory space. Please see my notes below and add anything that will help.
Please note this is for 'Drip-Feeding' NOT regular RS232 file transfer
Dialog 4 related answers please NOT Dialog 3 or 11 (Completely different)

To 'Drip Feed' large files (larger than 256k) with Dialog 4:

1 - Dialog 4 requires the NEP52 hardware PCB

2 - Deckel file handling software required to separate the large file into smaller 'packets'
and manage the required data to the Dialog controller.
What options are available for this software ? Is the original DOS version the only software for this purpose, or are there other version available ? Where can I obtain this software ?

3 - Is the cable for the 'special' software the same cable used for the regular comms type software ?
If not, what are the pin outs (D25 - D25) ?

4 - Are there any special settings required at the Dialog CNC control for this to work ?

5 - I'm told that the protocol used for drip feed is LSV2. Is this the very same as for Heidenhain ?
If so, can we use the old DOS TNC transfer software by Heidenhain ?

I have learnt via the service engineer that our FP4 machine certainly performed drip-feeding with its former owners around twelve years ago. The machine sat in storage in a warehouse for several years before I found it coved under rubbish next to its sister machine ! The sad thing is, that the FP4 became separated from its PC companion with the appropriate software. The service engineer tells me that this company had two FP4's and purchased the DNC kits for each machine along with NC500 tables and three-spindle heads etc . Sadly all gone never to be found again !

HELP !!??

Nick.....

Nick:
Welcome back...
Sorry that i do not have much to add to your questions.

Been lucky enough to have the DNC setup. I bought mine as a package deal from FPS around 1997 or so. Came with a replacement NEP52 A board (exchange) and new software E-proms.

DNC requires software level 3.07. Nothing short of that will work.
Of course you can check the software level by going to mode 16 and keying "INFO".

The original package form FPS came with PC control software that was written by a German company named "Beetz".
The software they provided was a DOS program.
This caused problems! My original setup used Windows 98' and that program had the ability to run real DOS programs. The Beetz software needed to run memory resident in the root directory to function properly (something about needing control of all the IO's ahead of windows)
When i upgraded to Windows 2000 the DOS Beets program would no longer work properly so i went to a dual operating system setup.
That solved the DOS running problem, but led to issues with my CAM (SurfCam) program.

I contacted Beetz and they supplied a beta Windows version of the control/splitting program .
This is the program i am still running today. Works fine although with any operating system upgrade i face the potential of the program no longer working........

Beetz is still in business but no longer have anything to do with Deckel DNC and the LSV2 protocol.

The Beetz program runs using a dongle. It is "Auto DNC 3.25.

The cable setup i use is as follows:

DB 9 DB25

2..........................................2
3..........................................3
7..........................................4
8..........................................5
5..........................................7


At control tie 6,8 and 20 together


There are two limits on programs sent to the Dialog4 control:
First is memory size, that being 256K for most machines.
Second programs are limited to 9999 lines of code when loading full programs to memory in the control.

"Auto DNC" functions to split large programs into smaller "linked" programs..Files are first stored in a file where "Auto DNC" can find them. Then you call the program and enable the split. You have some control over the size you use for each split section. Auto DNC splits the file up and re-writes each section to have a sequential header and footer that keep the split sections in order. .Each split also has its block numbers re-done to start with "001" as the first line in each.
Auto DNC saves all the splits in a file and labels it with an ".NLP" extension.

Unlike doing a straight transfer from the PC to memory, Under DNC the process goes like this:
The control program is opened on the PC. The transfer mode is selected, having a window opened that shows the transfer activity and program status.

Going to the machine control , you must first activate the DNC function.

In mode 14 scroll across to "RS232" and hit the acknowledge key. (Diamond with the "J")

Key down to "DNC" and key right or left to change the state from "OFF" to "ON".

Go to mode 15 and acknowledge the "IN" selection at the top of the screen. At the bottom of the screen will open a window highlighted with the "%". Enter the number of the saved NLP program you wish to run.

The control will contact the PC and initiate teh beginning of the file transfer. You will see the block numbers passing on the PC transfer window.....

Once the files have begun to load you can change to mode 13 and select the first of the split programs and make it active just as you would do if the entire program was in memory.

You can also now go to mode 10 at this time and load your tool offset info , and position the machine over your part .

CAUTION!!!!!!!! If you are working in inches (must tell Auto DNC this when doing the file split) you have to wait until at least two split programs have loaded completely before your start running the program under auto.
Problem is that the files are all seen by the control as being in meters until the split section is fully loaded. So if you start running too soon and finish running the first split before the second has fully loaded you will get a nasty crash as the control tries to execute the partial load as a metric file.....

There are additional issues with the AUTO-DNC setup. The control gets all its modal info such as which tool and how the cutter comp is handled along with things like blended contouring (G64), spindle speed, feed rate etc within the initial program split, or at tool changes. If the machine stops mid program due to a fault, broken tool or ??? all that initial info is lost. You can restart but care must be used to reload all the important stuff before resuming....

Not sure this protocol is shared with any other machines or controls.
Don't think the file control setup is too complex. Just have to get the file markers correct on splitting the program up and the blocks renumbered to reflect that split.

Sample of split program.....

$%4000
%
($%004000/000000"NLP aus 4000.ncc)
N1 G0 X+0 Y+0 Z+4.
N2 G17 T32
N3 G0 G64 X+2.1991 Y+3.2349 Z+4.3 F30.0 S+3150 M8
N4 G0 Y+3.2349 Z+3.3325
N5 S+3150 Z+3.0825 F10.0
N6 Y+3.0349 F30.0
........

N35 X-6.8407
N36 Y+2.5849
N37 X+2.1991
N38 Y+2.4349
N39 X+4.5991
N40 Y-2.4349
N9999 L0 %4001

?
0000
Û
$%4001

%
($%4001/000000)
N1 X-6.6907
N2 Y+2.4349
N3 X+2.1991
N4 Y+2.2849
N5 X+4.4491
N6 Y-2.2849
N7 X-6.5407
N8 Y+2.2849
.....................

N907 X-3.4621 Y-.6039
N908 X-3.2092 Y-1.083
N909 X-3.1701 Y-1.2981
N910 X-3.1451 Y-1.4139
N911 X-3.088 Y-1.6486
N912 X-3.0639 Y-2.0958
N913 X-3.0761 Y-2.5963
N914 X-3.153 Y-2.9518
N915 X-3.178 Y-3.0349
N916 G0 Z+4.3
N917 G0 X-3.3289 Y+3.0349
N9999 L0 %4002

?
0000
Û
$%4002

%
($%4002/000000)
N1 G0 Z+3.1825
N2 Z+2.9325 F10.0
N3 X-3.2422 Y+2.6979 F30.0
N4 X-3.2135 Y+2.2527
N5 X-3.2301 Y+1.6673
N6 X-3.2898 Y+1.4547
N7 X-3.3159 Y+1.2769
N8 X-3.4912 Y+0.8513
N9 X-3.6553 Y+0.5862
N10 X-3.8379 Y+0.3252
N11 X-4.1873 Y-.0014
N12 X-4.113 Y-.0697
N13 X-3.9492 Y-.1925
............................


N879 G0 X+4.7346 Y+3.0349
N880 G0 Z+3.0325
N881 Z+2.7825 F10.0
N882 Y+1.3255 F30.0
N883 X+4.5931 Y-.0326
N884 X+4.6066 Y-.154
N885 X+4.7318 Y-.7172
N886 X+4.7377 Y-3.0165
N9999 L0 %4003

?
0000
Û
$%4003

%
($%4003/000000)
N1 Y-3.0349
N2 G0 Z+4.3
N3 G0 X+4.5846 Y+3.0349
N4 G0 Z+3.0325
N5 Z+2.7825 F10.0
N6 Y+1.3333 F30.0
N7 X+4.4423 Y-.0331
N8 X+4.4584 Y-.1787
N9 X+4.5818 Y-.7339
N10 X+4.5877 Y-3.0169
N11 Y-3.0349
N12 G0 Z+4.3
N13 G0 X+4.4346 Y+3.0349
N14 G0 Z+3.0325
N15 Z+2.7825 F10.0


And so on.

If i were trying to get this sorted out i think i would first contact FPS
to see what they could offer for the PC software.

Cheers Ross

Ross,
That's an excellent answer. Very informative and covers pretty much all.

I appear to have software 2.19.
As mentioned earlier, the service engineer tells me that my machine was used to make aerospace parts via DNC control. When I switch to mode 14 and select DNC-ON its ready to function.
Is this normal ?

Wouldn't it be good to have someone who enjoys programming to write some special software to help us with this. I know of such a person, but I don't know if he understands communication/port software and protocols etc.


Nick...

Rider-83 said:

I appear to have software 2.19.
When I switch to mode 14 and select DNC-ON its ready to function.

Nick...

Click to expand...

To the best of my knowledge you have to have software version 3.07 to run the Deckel setup.....
Perhaps you have some other solution, i don't know.
If the "DNC" feature toggles "ON" and "OFF" in mode 14 then that part is working....Take a look at the NEP board. It should have an "NEP-A label somewhere on it. Might have the NEP crossed out and the NEP-A added.

Cheers Ross

Does anyone know where I can buy this Deckel software ? New or Used ?
Has anyone any idea how much it will cost me ?
Please ? HELP !

Nick:
So i am a bit confused. You state that the software level of your machine is 2.19, and yet you believe that your machine ran under true DNC (drip feed).

Can you verify that you have the required hardware?
Is your machine fitted with an NEP52-A board...does it say so on the card?
If so, believe you will need a complete set of e-proms for the required software upgrade to run DNC.

My question is if this machine ran DNC before, how was this done?
Unlikely that someone changed the software package back to 2.19.

Anyhow if i were you i would contact Don Sentner (Deckeldoctor) for the definitive answer as to exactly what you need. I am sure he can supply the software to upgrade your machine, but unless you have the required hardware it will not be of any help.
A screen shot of your software listing (mode16-Info) would eliminate any confusion and help Don sort out exactly what you require in the way of software.

You might also contact FPS in Germany if you can manage the language since they are closer to you. I have had my best results using FAX to communicate with them.

Cheers Ross

Ross,
I will take the hood off the console and look at the NEP board. Curious though isn't it about the eprom software version.
As for talking to FPS, I could ask an ex-work collegue. He is half German & Irish !

Nick.

Rider-83 said:

Ross,
I will take the hood off the console and look at the NEP board. Curious though isn't it about the eprom software version.
As for talking to FPS, I could ask an ex-work collegue. He is half German & Irish !

Nick.

Click to expand...

Try this it's faster and easier, go to mode 16 and hit info. That should show what software and cards you have. It will look like the attached picture if you have DNC. Package should be 3.07 and the NEP52 should be 3.07 as well.

As we already know, I'm at software level 2.19.
I have removed the NEP card to get the seriel codes:

Card: NEP52 44206-830.02
EPROMs: 44206-353.32 NEP ' 52/IC 11 A 2.16 to 52/IC 19 J 2.16'

Hello Guys,

Any software below 3.07 WILL NOT DNC!!!

Even if you have 3.07 Software DNC will not work unless you have both

nep52A and npp55,56A circuit boards installed!!

Yes if you have any software level below 3.07 you can go into RS232 Setup page and turn DNC ON BUT IT WILL NOT WORK PERIOD!!


Regards
DD

DUE TO ECONOMIC HARD TIMES THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL WILL BE SWITCHED OFF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!!!

Oh dear.

I'm doomed
Looks like a lot of typing for me...
How long do you think in might take me to hand edit over 45,000 lines ?
I know ! If I upload it here, everyone can do a little bit whilst watching 'game of thrones' or maybe an old Chuck Norris movie.

Just noticed that the 'software version' screen posted further up is on a black screen with 'white' text.
My machine displays 'green' text. Hmmm.

The white on black may be one of DD's LCD screen retrofits. My screen is green on black and I think has the correct hardware a software to drip feed, just not the software for the PC side.

Yes Finster has 2 of my LED conversions.

Regards
DD

DUE TO ECONOMIC HARD TIMES THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL WILL BE SWITCHED OFF UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE!!!

Follows very excited with this sank here in connection with RS232 but my Deckel FP2NC contains a 3.07 software and is not connected as shown here.

9 pin jumper in between 1 and 6
25 pin jumper in between 6 and 8 socket

9 pin and 25 pin
2 ------------- 10
3 ------------- 11
4 ------------- 8
5 ------------- 7
2 ------------- 12
6 ------------- 19
7 ------------- 9
8 ------------- 10

I should be able to send and receive and run the DNC with the same cable
but do not work as it should for me now, but when there is another Deckel fp2nc
here near where I live, it is connected that way.

my Deckel fp2nc has stood still for a few years so there is shift a lot of electronics in it and expect it probably is what's the problem with this RS232 cables
when the Burt function could well imagine that DD would write to me if I'm completely wrong.

The machine comes from Lego in Denmark and has been standing still for 6 years that have changed some memmory circles and batteries and many other electronics, the drive now that it requires the machine itself, but rs323 is not ok and DNC functioning, not at all.

Excuse my poor English because this is Google translated from Danish to English

What are you doing that requires 45,000 lines of code?
The d4 has drilling cycles, pocket milling, pin milling, subroutines and parameters.
3d contouring is about all it is tough to do programming at the control.
I am currently working on a 2 cavity injection mold I am using mirror image and zero offsets
to produce the cavities and subroutines for the contour.
As soon as it is finished I will post pictures and let you know the # of bits of memory used.
I am using a ball endmill and using the contour pocket cycle g78(to get the passes I need to complete the depth of the fixed and moving half cavities cut The part is not split at the center).
Dave

Have run my FP4NC (D-4) with as many as 90,000 lines of code for a single program. Of course this was 3-d profiling with rough out etc....
Lots of time to run this on a Dialog control....And no canned cycles, just point to point moves.
Would not attempt to do this without full graphic verify software of all the code.

Dave:
Been a long time since i used the mirror on a Dialog.(do most everything now using CAM) Doesn't running mirror change the cut direction relative to the surface? Any issues with surface finish?

Cheers Ross

jhdata said:

Follows very excited with this sank here in connection with RS232 but my Deckel FP2NC contains a 3.07 software and is not connected as shown here.

9 pin jumper in between 1 and 6
25 pin jumper in between 6 and 8 socket

9 pin and 25 pin
2 ------------- 10
3 ------------- 11
4 ------------- 8
5 ------------- 7
2 ------------- 12
6 ------------- 19
7 ------------- 9
8 ------------- 10

I should be able to send and receive and run the DNC with the same cable
but do not work as it should for me now, but when there is another Deckel fp2nc
here near where I live, it is connected that way.

my Deckel fp2nc has stood still for a few years so there is shift a lot of electronics in it and expect it probably is what's the problem with this RS232 cables
when the Burt function could well imagine that DD would write to me if I'm completely wrong.

The machine comes from Lego in Denmark and has been standing still for 6 years that have changed some memmory circles and batteries and many other electronics, the drive now that it requires the machine itself, but rs323 is not ok and DNC functioning, not at all.

Excuse my poor English because this is Google translated from Danish to English

Click to expand...

As Deckel Doctor points out above you must have the hardware as well as the software to run DNC.
Not sure what you are asking?
DNC aside, can you send files form a computer to the control via RS232 using transfer software and a cable wired as shown in the post above?

Cheers Ross

Yes,
it climb mills instead of conventional but with short as possible variable helix offset carbide endmills and a nice tight beefy deckel with a well tuned bosch drive, good thrust bearings and ballscrews.
i have not had any issues especially on inside contours using the g61in the cutter comp block then finish pass use g60.

I have the original Deckel DNC software running well in a DOS box under XP. That solves the DOS networking problem.

The XP PC is in the workshop near the Deckel and I remote control it using remote desktop.

I bought the DNC software from a German machine dealer and translated it to English using a HEX editor.

If you get hold of the right version of boards and machine software, PM me and I'll help you out with the rest.

/Torleif.