Did The Flip-head models fix the Z axis Galling
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  1. #1
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    Default Did The Flip-head models fix the Z axis Galling

    Hi All,

    I was reading the previous post concerning trouble with the
    Z axis and the over-ride clutch. Ross seemed to intimate
    that there may no trouble with the Z axis galling near
    the top of the axis travel on the flip-head models- is this true?

    Do the flip-head models have this galling problem sorted out?

    Paul Hoffman

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    Nope. My 1986 FP2NC flip-head has the disease. Deckel had a big design defect.


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    Hi Rklopp,

    So what did you do to fix the problem or is it usable as it is?

    Will it be hard to fix this problem?

    How does this problem manifest itself in the machining of a part?

    Regards,

    Paul Hoffman

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    Paul
    I have not attempted to fix the problem. The machine is useable as-is, and I don't see any particular manifestations when machining. Ross had the experience, where the galling got so bad it interfered with Z motion, but I am not there yet. I do run lube pulses quite frequently and additionally squirt way on on the exposed galled area. I find that the built-in lube system does not get enough oil to the area, which likely explains the defect.

    My machine has enough other wear issues that it is not worth fixing the way issue. Others might think differently. The gears are worn and noisy at high speed. The Y scale needs new seals. The table droops due to X wear. The CRT is burnt-in and takes a long time to warm up. I also don't have the space to take the machine all apart and work on it.

    Regards

    RKlopp

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    Hi Rklopp,

    Do you have the universal table on your machine, if so you should be able to adjust
    the table for the errors. It won't be perfect, but you should be able to make it better.
    If you don't have the universal table I've seen some for $1,000 in Europe.

    On the burn-in on the CRT from what I hear a VGA compatible LCD would take care of that.

    On the gear problem, I guess there's not much to be done about other than replacing the
    offending gears. With the gears, is it just the high speed set, or the whole gear train?

    I would think that the whole Deckel community would have a stake in figuring this out
    so that maybe they could do a group buy on replacements.

    The problem I worry about is all those CNC controllers that are going south in the next
    few years. I am thinking about buying a Deckel, but how much longer can a Dialog 4 be
    maintained and working at a reasonable price.

    Paul

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    I don’t have a universal table, else I would dial away the droop. I do that on my Aciera F5. I know it’s blasphemy, but my next CNC mill is going to have an automatic tool changer, i.e., a VMC. Manual tool changing gets old once you’ve tasted the ATC coolaid.


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    Hi Rklopp,

    I have a Brother TC22A CNC mill, it has a 26 tool ATC, and does a tool change in
    .75 sec.. The rapids are 2200 ipm, it's a wonderful machine. My Brother has
    a 12,000 rpm spindle. For the price of many of the Euro machines you can get a Brother.

    On the other hand the Brother does not have all of the bells and whistles that
    a flip-head FP4NC has, like a universal table. I don't plan on using a deckel for
    it's CNC abilities - I will use it as a manual machine. I would only buy a Deckel
    if it has the universal table.

    I am also worried about the longevity of the Dialog series CNC controls. I had a
    Lugun CNC that was about the same vintage as most of the Dialog controls and it's
    control died about 10 years ago.

    Paul

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    I would add some additional observations on all this....First to be clear i did not say that the "Flip" head machines were without problems on the "Z" ways.
    I have seen the Flip head machines with the inside way galling.....I own one myself. It does happen.
    I would say that it is less prevalent in the Flip head machines than on the earlier 3150 "camel back" machines.
    Further,I think the later versions of the "Flip" are the least likely to have the issue.....Believe that Deckel in a attempt to cure the problem changed the heat treatment of the
    "Z" ways. Later machines are much harder on the surface than earlier versions. Deckel changed the scraping technique on the later machines as well. Late "Flip" head machines have
    a much more aggressive pattern on the slide side .

    On my 3150 FP4NC the "Z" way surface was soft enough that scraping with a carbide tool is relatively easy. Good cutting action was not an issue.
    However on my 86' FP3NC "Flip" the way surfaces are so hard that the same carbide scraper barley scratches the surface (power or hand)...makes marks but moves no metal at all....
    For what ever reason the most issues on the "Flip" machines i have seen has been on the FP2NC's.
    And that goes for the problem with the annoying spindle whine as well.

    As to gear noise....think almost all Deckels with significant spindle time get noisy.....Its rare to find one that is very quiet. Most of the noise will be generated , i believe from the vertical drive
    portion of the gear train. My 3150 FP4NC is a bit noisy when running above 1000 RPM in vertical...However running horizontal at higher speeds its pretty quiet, with very little gear noise. (pretty much just the drive motor)

    My FP2NC "Flip" by contrast is much louder when running vertical.....Think in this area its pretty much a coin toss as to what you get.....Hard long work life is likely to produce a noisy machine.
    I pretty much ignore it..of just turn up the radio....
    Replacement of the gear train to make a machine quiet would represent a huge investment with unsure results....lots of stuff in there that are high cost to replicate....All gear teeth are finish ground and some are integral with needle bearings, and
    splines. All the sort of stuff that would make after market replacement hard to replicate at a reasonable cost even if you could broker a group buy....I don't see this as a possibility.
    Perhaps coating teh existing gears could help in the noise department...no experience here with that potential remedy...
    Think the later machines with the variable frequency spindle drive would potentially be better as to noise since they incorporate fewer gears in the spindle drive, but they still have the vertical spiral bevel gear setup, so no guarantees.

    As to the control....there is documentation as to the circuit diagrams, and the boards have discreet components that can be replaced.... Getting older its true, but pretty repairable for most components, just depends on
    your level of connection to this system....Believe they can be kept working for some time into the future if desired.

    Replacement of the CRT IMO is a must if you are planning on keep a machine for an extended period of time! A solid state display is more reliable (i replaced my video board 3 times before i bit the bullet and replaced all
    with an LCD display)
    The real advantage to the machine is the reduced temperature of the operators station. I equate this directly to prolonged board life!

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    I don’t have a universal table, else I would dial away the droop.
    A bit 'shadetree' but I've seen shims under the lower edge of the table mount to raise the front of the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    A bit 'shadetree' but I've seen shims under the lower edge of the table mount to raise the front of the table.

    Same here!
    Had a machine with a fixture plate fitted (FP2NC) and that plate was shimmed to correct the sag.....stupid!

    Cheers Ross

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    The big casting with Z boxways on it is the same/compatible between Dialog4 and 11 machines.

    My early D11 (2838) FP4NC has a Z-column casting with 2810 parts number on it, which is a D4 FP4NC.

    Both of my fliphead FPNCs have hardened Z-ways, D4 2801 FP2NC is from 1986, 2838 D11 is from 1989. So they changed over to hardened Z sometimes before 1986.

    Galling on the bottom of X is from my experience a more serious issue than galled up Z. Smaller machines are also more problematic, probably because the ways are smaller and have more pressure on it, so oil gets displaced more easily.

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    Any time I have a lot of repetitive machining I make a fixture plate for the job that gets surfaced to be perpendicular to the spindle.

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