Early Schaublin 13 value? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    In looking at the manuals on the onedrive link, your machine appears to have oil-lubricated rather than greased spindle bearings. Are there Zerk fittings that look like they might lead to the spindle bearings? If so, (a) don't apply grease unless you know for sure you should, and (b) you might avoid spindle teardowns if, once you confirm oiling is correct, oil runs out clean when you pump it in. I'd unscrew the Zerks and see what was underneath before doing that. If it was up to me, I'd still want to peak inside somehow, to make sure things are healthy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MillersFalls View Post
    Would recommend tearing down and cleaning an older machine like this?
    What rklopp has written is very sensible. There is another reason for "taking a peek inside, to make sure things are healthy": it helps you to appreciate the skill and craftsmanship of the people who designed and built these machines. You will treat the machine with more respect, and will also look more closely at the things that "don't seem right" or "don't make sense". In some cases it's because something is wrong that needs to be fixed, and in some cases it's because you didn't understand how it was supposed to work.

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    Haven’t worked on a S13, but have read in several places that an oil seal high up tends go without being seen- it’s behind the belt cover- and spews oil on the vari speed Reeves belt. Suggest looking for leaks as you start running the machine.

    Congrats on what looks like a great purchase!

    L7

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    rklopp,there is a zerk fitting right smack on top of the high speed spindle, and one that looks like it might lead to the horizontal spindle as well, though I am less sure of this. The Zerk fittings appear to be filled with grease, but this could be old oil. The 1953 manual makes no mention of grease, only ISO 32 oil, so it seems that everything, including the spindle takes oil.

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    So I got all the big pieces taken off, and most everything looks pretty good, the ways are in good shape, and the screws and nuts look pretty nice as well. However there is an issue with the rapid drive train. It seems like at some point somebody picked up the mill, and set it on top of something causing some damage to the rapid switch, a chip out of one of the rapid pulleys, and the attachment linking the rapid pulley to the gears. This event also seems to have prompted the PO to move the motor to the outside of the machine. Most of this is not too big of a problem, but the way they fixed the rapid shaft is not great. It comes in at a slight angle perhaps due to the bracket they built not being 90 deg, or the mounting plate being warped from the incident, or the weld. Its a little tough to tell how the rapid motor was hitched to the power feed drive, so if anybody has suggestions I am all ears.

    Here is a picture of the cleaned up, stripped mill, and the offending repair.
    20200517_184440.jpg20200517_184405.jpg

    Edit: it appears the rapid motor is hard connected to the power feed gears, which would be about the only way both motors would fit inside. I feel like a belt drive would be safer, but I suppose if your engaging the rapid it shouldn't ever be overloaded, unless you step on it by accident. Knowing this, the theory that it got set on top of something might not be right, but now wonder why the PO decided to re-arrange the motors, perhaps the rapid motor is a replacement and he was unable to find one that could mount directly to the casting.

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  7. #26
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    The motor replacement theory is plausible. The motor may have had an unobtanium custom flanged end bell, and, instead of grafting the old end bell onto the new motor, the PO went to the kludgy-looking alternative. The Aciera F4 and F5 have a similar issue in that the feed motor has an oddball flanged endbell and direct connection to the gearbox. When I replaced the feed motor on my F4, I grafted the old endbell onto the new motor, and it has worked just fine for the last decade. When I replaced the main spindle motor, the replacement was longer than the OEM (which was really shoehorned in there), and I had to flip the mounting such that the motor stuck out the back. I modified the back cover to look like OEM.

    dsc00003.jpg

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    That connection "knock out" box on the side of the machine has got to go!
    Totally kills the Euro quality machine vibe.
    Cheers Ross

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  10. #28
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    [QUOTE=AlfaGTA;3551750]That connection "knock out" box on the side of the machine has got to go!
    Totally kills the Euro quality machine vibe.
    Cheers Ross[/]
    There's also a box that I installed on the side of my F4. That's were the VFDs live. There's not enough room in the base where all the contactors and relays used to live. When I got the machine, there was a normal Square D safety switch in that same spot.
    aciera-6.jpg

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    Rich:
    The above photo i assume is pre motor change,yes?
    Cheers Ross

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    Yes. That is the machine still at Don’s.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Yes it appears a motor that fits both the existing keyway and the mounting flange may not exist though it a bit tough to tell without the original motor to compare. It shouldn't be too hard though to make a custom flange adapter

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    There are several YouTube videos about Schaublin 13 disassembly, but I could not find one that showed the rapid feed motor. Did not all 13s have rapid traverse?

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    I believe that David Samways, the owner of the web site Anglo-Swiss Tools - Anglo-Swiss Tools, has restored a Schaublin 13. You can find a short video from him here YouTube . There is also quite a bit of info on the "archive" part of his web site above. I think David might also be the creator or owner of the oldswissmachines groups.io group, but am not sure about this.

  16. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillersFalls View Post
    Its a little tough to tell how the rapid motor was hitched to the power feed drive, so if anybody has suggestions I am all ears.
    On the original setup, the rapid motor is mounted vertically directly under the flange machined in the machine casting at the base of the feed bar.
    Just above the flange, there's a freewheel that allows the rapids to spin the feed bar independantly from the normal feeds.

    The motor drives the freewheel via what looks like an internal gear on Schaublin's drawings, but the assembly is actually nothing else than a simple splined coupling. I made one years ago (as well as an motor flange adapter) to adapt a motor on a Schaublin 13 that was missing the rapids.

    moteur-davances-schaublin-13.jpg

    Of course, the location of the rapids motor makes it very difficult to work on and narrows the choice considerably for a replacement.
    Probably the reason for the desperate efforts of the PO to get the system out of the base of the machine !
    As often with swiss machines, first rate craftmanship, smart engineering, but overly complicated design and questionnable result...
    Just my opinion.

    Just found some other interesting pictures for you on the french forum usinages.com :





    View the full page here

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  18. #35
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    TNB,
    Thanks for the detailed reply. PM is fantastic! As to the Swiss over-complication, Schaublin's lobed triangular solution to the "problem" of keyed or splined shaft connections is Exhibit A. At least Aciera avoided that detail.
    Best regards and stay safe out there.
    RKlopp

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    Quote Originally Posted by rklopp View Post
    TNB,
    , Schaublin's lobed triangular solution to the "problem" of keyed or splined shaft connections is Exhibit A.
    Well, think that triangular lobed coupling appears to be the inspiration for the "Sandvik" "Capto" modular tooling system....Difficult to make but oh boy does it work magic!

    CAPTO - Google Search


    Cheers Ross

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    TNB: your flange adapter looks great, that is exactly what I am planning on doing, though I was hoping to use the original spline connections. Thanks so much for posting! I am having trouble finding a motor small enough though, I don't think a 56C will fit would you happen to know what size motor you used.

    As for the lobbed triangular shafts, I think they are great, an elegant design for sure that should be harder to damage than a spline. of course I don't have to replace any knock on wood.

    There is a video on youtube of a S13 disassembly that has saved me a ton of time. I could have figured it all out myself but following the video when I got stuck was a huge time saver.
    YouTube

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    What I mean is that the lobed coupling (polygon) makes sense in the design of a toolholder when rigidity and precision are major concerns...

    But it is a total non-sense for a simple pulley, where a plain keyed shaft works magic as well !

    Especially if you consider the poor design Schaublin's engineers retained for the workhead bevel gears of the 13 (straight teeth, much, much noisyer than any of the FP1's I've had).

    So what's the point in making the extra effort for useless and probably pretty expensives complications, when more important features are neglected ?

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  23. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MillersFalls View Post
    I don't think a 56C will fit would you happen to know what size motor you used.
    You probably want a 63C or 71C metric frame motor. WEG has this one that is about 5.5 inches OD. It's 3/4 HP, which should be plenty for that machine. Multimounting High Efficiency 0.75 HP 2P 71 3Ph 230/460//380-415 V 60 Hz IC411 - TEFC - B35L(E) | TEFC Multimounting IE2 | Aluminum Frame | General Purpose | AC Motors - IEC | Electric Motors | WEG - Products

    The higher speed (3600 RPM) gets you a smaller frame size. If the speed is too high, knock it down with a cheap VFD. I am sure there are other 71C IEC frame motors that are smaller, like if open drip-proof as opposed to TEFC. The cooling fins on the TEFC make it fatter.

    An alternative would be a servomotor, but then it starts to become a real project.

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    Thanks for the source rklopp. As near as I can tell the maximum motor diameter that will fit in the cut out for the rapid motor is around 5". For future readers, the manual says it was originally a 0.3 hp, 2800 rpm 3 phase motor with a 3mm key. I measure the shaft on components that mate with the original motor to be 9 mm.

    Since the flange mounts in the casting are not a standard diameter (mine are 3 holes offset by 90 deg, not 120 as shown in the manual) it is impossible as far as I can tell to exactly replace the original motor. That said both IEC 63 and NEMA 42C motors are small enough to fit, though the 42c should give a bit more wiggle room. I plan on buying a single phase 1/4 hp, 1750 rpm 42c Baldor on Ebay (less power, but slower speed = more torque than manufacturer spec, so the rapids should work fine, just a tad slower), and making a custom flange adapter, or preferably drilling new holes in the existing mounting flange. If I get a single phase motor for the rapids, I only have the main motor left on 3 phase (I am ignoring the coolant pump) so I can easily swap out the RPC for a VFD later if I so choose. I'm also planing on turning down the existing shaft from either 3/8" or 1/2" to the required 9 mm via angle grinder or belt sander on the running motor. Wont be pretty, but it should be concentric, and should hopefully bolt straight in when I'm done modifying it. If it doesn't work i'm out at most about $100 for the motor.


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