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  1. #61
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    it came from an auction, and they have a policy not to disclose sellers contact information, and I don't want to bother them asking to go over there and measure it, since they included some dimensions of the machine, but they look suspiciously identical to other picomax 51 cnc ad info on the web, so I didn't trust them

    anyway, I dug up a users manual on the interwebs for a Picomax 50 (can't attach it here on the forum since it allows only max 19,5kb for a pdf file, and the manual is 2,77Mb), it has a page with dimensions, and since 51 CNC is basically the same machine with added NC, it wasn't too difficult to get a general idea of the footprint: base machine 2m*1,4m and 1m*0,8m for the control cabinet

    capture.jpg

    edit: google drive link in case anyone is interested in the manual - Fehlmann Picomax 5 Manual (German).pdf - Google Drive

    p.s. I blame Milacron and this thread for the purchase I was bidding on another lot in that auction (Caz HBX 360), and when it went over my limit, I saw this thing and it had no bids on it, so I took it for a starter price
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails capture.jpg  

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    p.s. I blame Milacron and this thread for the purchase I was bidding on another lot in that auction (Caz HBX 360), and when it went over my limit, I saw this thing and it had no bids on it, so I took it for a starter price
    LOL... yeah, kinda like NC Deckels, even though they cost way more new than the manual counterparts, they are worth way less now than the manual versions of similar vintage (i.e. 1980's machines) due to ancient controls. Looking at Euro dealer sites over the years the P51 seems more common than the P50 to find for sale....I suspect most P50 owners hang on to them forever, and most P51 owners don't mind seeing them go.

    Of some humor, I figured the other day, not counting travel time, gas, hotel.... I paid negative 6000 USD for my P50.... bought it for about 1500*, sold for ten times that much and bought it back for $7,500 !

    =================================

    *1375 plus 10% auction buyer rip

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    those older NCs were half analogue (motor drivers), and with little amount of info available, the repairs on the NC side of the machine take long time and/or relatively big $$$, so a manual machine makes a lot more sense to most people

    me, being quite familiar with electronics and all sorts of automated controls, I want to see how it is put together, get the control in a working state, see the logic behind more complicated actions, and if the mechanical side of the machine is sound, then perhaps retrofit it with a more modern control

    I bought it because of curiosity mostly (the price delivered will be around 3k eur), I don't really need it to make parts right away, I have machines in place already for that, but if this turns out to be good, it will probably displace one of the larger asian mill/drills I have here, the only downside is the SF32 tooling, the asian machine it would replace I specifically ordered with iso40 spindle to share tooling with the Mikron WF41 I also have, Mikron uses SK40, but removing and putting back a pull stud still makes more sense to me than getting a completely different set of tool holders

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    LOL... yeah, kinda like NC Deckels, even though they cost way more new than the manual counterparts, they are worth way less now than the manual versions of similar vintage (i.e. 1980's machines) due to ancient controls. Looking at Euro dealer sites over the years the P51 seems more common than the P50 to find for sale....I suspect most P50 owners hang on to them forever, and most P51 owners don't mind seeing them go.

    Of some humor, I figured the other day, not counting travel time, gas, hotel.... I paid negative 6000 USD for my P50.... bought it for about 1500*, sold for ten times that much and bought it back for $7,500 !

    =================================

    *1375 plus 10% auction buyer rip
    What I have found though is if the Deckel is running it makes a good manual machine disregard of the antiquated control. With the hand pendant and rapids you can work at quite a rapid pace with no need for cranking a heavy table around... the repair side of things is a different story. Overall they are a good value. I paid 3500 for my manual Elliot mill, and I paid more for moving my two NC Deckels than I did for the machines themselves.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by legoboy View Post
    What I have found though is if the Deckel is running it makes a good manual machine disregard of the antiquated control. .
    "if the Deckel is running" is the key issue however.... one bad capacitor (or worse, one bad IC) and the whole game comes to an end. The manual machines you don't have to cringe a bit every time you turn one on.... like I did with my Dialog 11 machine especially.

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    I would love to comment about this, but think i will keep quiet for fear of provoking the sleeping ancient control gremlins....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    I would love to comment about this, but think i will keep quiet for fear of provoking the sleeping ancient control gremlins....
    Cheers Ross
    You make a good point Ross...knock on wood

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    removing and putting back a pull stud still makes more sense to me than getting a completely different set of tool holders
    Generally speaking I'd say yes but OTOH, quick tool change is what really makes the Fehlmann special over more ordinary mill-drills to me.

    Quality is not arguable but general layout and precision are nothing to write home about...

    What you don't see anywhere else -except on Aciera- is the quick tool change. That feature comes at a price.

    May be that comment may apply better to manual machines though ?

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    I reread what I wrote and it may sound like I was criticizing the SF32 system, nono, that wasn't what I meant, I see all the advantages of it, and it will be ideal for what I would do on this machine, one-offs or small batches of prototype parts, light milling on aluminum 99% of time, drill holes, tap, etc

    the drawback I had in mind is the financial kind meaning - I need to buy new tooling that will be exclusive to this machine and I can't use it on anything else - I work alone, so the tool holders usually come with me to the machine I'm currently working on, and this will require a separate set...

    I quietly hope that one of those desk drawers has at least a couple to get me started on it, well, I'll know in couple weeks or so

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    I understand the financial problem very well.
    My comment was just to emphasyse the benefit of the SF32 system...if that can somewhat ease the pain of having to invest in new tooling.

  13. #71
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    fullsizerender.jpg

    View not seen in the other photos showing the motorized head on column dog stops. The first two are extreme up and down positions, the yellow buttons are three selectable dog positions.....or you just let go of a button and it stops wherever you like. Micrometer adjustments possible on two of the dogs for precision stops if needed. Stops have illuminated bulb so you know which one you are on.

    Round green button on side near front of head is for head "up" only, yellow square buttons are for head "down" only. Round red button is for hydraulic unlock for manual fine tune of head position. When using green or yellow buttons the hydraulic wedge automatically unlocks and re locks.
    Last edited by Milacron; 07-18-2018 at 02:20 PM.

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    If curious about the orange foot switch....it's not for tapping, but rather an alternative means of starting and stopping the spindle. Spindle has a brake so stops almost instantly too.

    Tapping is done by turning a knob on the head to tapping position, after which one sets one of the stops on the rotary drum for depth and the spindle reverses when the drum dog touches the quill extension.

    Which is also how the power feed is disengaged...or alternatively touch any of the three buttons on the hand wheel spokes a second time to disengage power feed.

    As nice as the tapping function is, IMHO Brown and Sharpe of all companies I think did them one better on their turret drills where, when in tapping mode the spindle reverses anytime you raise up on the handspokes.


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    Have any of you Euro folks ever seen a lot of USED Fehlmann QC tooling for sale ? I figure that's a hopeless wish, but wonder.... I have a dozen tool holders..enough to fill the outside rack....but the tooling drawer (with the wood rack and many tool holes) looks mighty empty with just 11 tools in it...plus half of them are morse taper holders I might never actually use...

    T, please post some closeups of your baby Picomax if you haven't already

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    I was googling for the tooling yesterday, just to see what's available, German ebay, ricardo, just few expired links showed up, and those were for single pieces, I think there was a boring head on NL ebay for 175EUR

    I also vaguely remember seeing 1-2 lots during last year on auctions at Troostwijk that may have been SF 32, but I sort of remember they were listed as some quick change arrangement for 40/50 taper, and there was a 40/50 taper holder with like a ER collet nut, I remember that the quick change things had steep taper and a groove, just like SF 32

    Certainly not much of it out there, found a CH site that had some new holders, B12/B16 chuck mounts for ~60EUR/piece, and some other stuff, but not much, an ER 35 holder was ~100eur I think, I'll get home in couple hours and recheck, don't recall the sites name

    edit: here is the link to the Swiss webshop, found them via google, so no idea how legit that outfit is, use at your own risk! http://www.swissmachines-shop.ch/res...rom=&sPriceTo=
    Last edited by jz79; 07-18-2018 at 03:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post


    edit: here is the link to the Swiss webshop, found them via google, so no idea how legit that outfit is, use at your own risk! http://www.swissmachines-shop.ch/res...rom=&sPriceTo=
    Dunno about that one.... I bought a 102N star wheel tailstock from these folks about a year ago and had a good experience

    Outils et accessoires de machine, livrables du stock - Realtools AG/SA

    I think it's run by Muller's wife, interestingly enough.

  20. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milacron View Post
    T, please post some closeups of your baby Picomax if you haven't already
    Here you are :

    fehlmann-p18s-visu-2-.jpg fehlmann-et-accessoires-9-.jpg

    fehlmann-et-accessoires-1-.jpg fehlmann-et-accessoires-8-.jpg

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  22. #77
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    And the some more :

    fehlmann-et-accessoires-4-.jpg fehlmann-et-accessoires-7-.jpg

    fehlmann-et-accessoires-5-.jpg fehlmann-et-accessoires-3-.jpg

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  24. #78
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    Wow...rarest of the rare....Not only a Picomax, but one that actually looks to have been used to cut metal....

    T: the photo lower right ...Is that a holding/tightening fixture for the collet chuck?

    Nice collection of tooling.
    Cheers Ross

  25. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Wow...rarest of the rare....Not only a Picomax, but one that actually looks to have been used to cut metal....
    Why does it look like the operator was throwing the probe at the side of the head, missing the rack by a lot, and dinging the paint accordingly? I'm surprised the probe survived.

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    Rich

    Those marks on the paint are from a mag stand the previous owner used to hold a light.
    Why he didn't use one of the existing threaded holes to secure the light to the machine (just like the factory setup) is beyond me. Oh well... At least I didn't had to drill the casting to mount that little holder I made for the probe.

    Ross

    You nailed it, it's a helper to hold the tool while you tighten keyless or collets chucks.
    It is really mandatory for the P18, since there's no spindle brake on the little bugger.
    I bet that even on the Picomax, the brake motor is not sufficient to hold the spindle firmly enough to tighten an ER collet chuck properly.

    As for spindle tooling, I'd advise you to ask for a quote from Fehlmann.
    I had one a few years back, and very surprisingly, their prices were pretty reasonnable. Far from the sky high prices one would have expected from any reputable swiss company.
    Used tooling is scarce and generally expensive enough to make buying new worth considering...
    Plus you don't need THAT much spindle tooling to use the machine to its max.
    The P18 is really a mill drill (and probably more of a small bench drill than a mill). The Picomax may be a bit beefier, but probably not by much.
    What is interesting is to have tooling of various length.

    I had fun mating my Wohlhaupter UPA1,5 to an SF32 attachment btw !


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