FP-1 Tooling

Like many FP-1 owners, my major struggle is finding tools to fit the FP-1. This seems to be more difficult than finding accessories. I currently have the verticle spindle head, horizontal milling head, and slotting head. I would like to find a good index head and spiral milling attachment but can live without them but simple non-metric cutting tools and misc. are the biggest pain...hence this post.

Can anyone out there help me find a clamping set for my FP-1 swivelling angular table ?

The T-slot size of these tables is weird even for metric land. I suppose i could buy some oversized t-nuts and grind them to fit or live with a sloppy fitting t-nut, threaded stud system but i hate abusing a beautiful machine with t-nuts with less than a slip fit. Right now I can't even attach my Kurt vise to the table...no t-nuts and threaded studs to attach it to the table.

Anybody got any clamping devices for the FP-1 that they want to sell ? Know any industrial supply houses with T-nuts that fit the Deckel FP-1 ?

Also, I have a acquired a set of spring collets to hold end mills for my ISO 40 taper deckel but can't find any fractional size end mill holders which I prefer over collets for heavy milling ? DMG has what may be end mill holders but are all metric.

Also, I have a slotting head but no single lip cutter blanks. I suppose I could buy a HSS boring bar or lathe cutting tool and grind it into a shaper type cutter but for me this mill is a means to an end (making parts for restoration of vintage motorcycles) not an end in itself...therefore I DO NOT WANT to spend a year making tools.

thanks
any help would be very much appreciated!
noahjlb

Well, in reverse order...
If you have a ISO 40 FP-1 then just convert it to NMTB40 and you will have an endless amount of tooling to choose from. Simply remove the drawbars and make new ones that fit the the NMTB threads (a large bolt will do in the meantime until you turn up something nice).
Both of my 40 taper FP-1's are now NMTB.

I've found table T-studs at my local machine tool supplier that are very close, but if you want the "right" ones...have you tried DMG for that? You probably don't need more than 10 so you could spend a few hours making them.

For the slotting head...hmmm....
So far, all I've seen is people using ground HSS stock bits for these. I don't know of any pre-made bits. It's sorta like a lathe where you are going to grind your bits anyway depending on the shape and rake of what you need. You could probably adapt some lathe carbide holder if you could get one really small and could find one for throating (ie square).


Sean

Metric t-nuts can be had from MSC. They are not cheap, but I believe the sell sizes that would fit the FP1.

Thanks to Sean and Sneebot for your help.
I did contact DMG and can get T-nuts for about $1.90 a piece that "fit" the slots on this machine..so I ordered 12 of them and we will see. If they don't fit I am only out $20.00. If they do have a good slip fit, then the work begins. I will need to drill out the center holes (probably of hardened tool steel) and redrill the holes and thread them to fit standard threaded rods of various lengths. Why not just buy the threaded studs from DMG you are thinking? At $83.00 per threaded stud, ah..I think I will resize the holes. In the meantime I will check out MSC to see what they have.
thanks again
Noahjlb

Noah,
I'm pretty sure MSC carries metric machine studs in different lengths, and they're not an arm and a leg to purchase. If nothing else they carry metric allthread, although it's not quite as tough as the machines studs, you could still buy a few lengths and cut it into a bunch of various lengths and essentially make your own hold down kit.

Brian

Brian,
I hope that you are right about that but worse case scenario, I redrill the holes in the T-nuts and thread them. For clamping purposes metric vs non-metric does not mean much. I don't think it is going to be that simple with deckel. Beaver State Machinery here in Portland Oregon used to sell Deckel mills about 20 years ago and the guy there made the remark to me that Deckel has a proprietary non-standard metric threads on much of their stuff. He seemed to recall that for the tool holders they were 20 mm in diameter and the threads were not the standard metric 2.0 and 2.5 mm pitch for most Europian machinery but were 1.5 ....worse still he thought the threads were not the standard v shape but some special shaped thread used only by Deckel. He suggested further that this might be the case with all Deckel's threaded tooling (including threaded studs-maybe that explains the 83 dollars). By the way, Deckel's use of a non-standard would not be unusual for manufacturers of top of the line machinery. Myford lathes in England uses a proprietary thread on their threaded spindle for the lathe. Hardinge has a tapered spindle nose on their tool room lathe that is superb but non-standard taper that does not fit the L or A class tapered back plates etc. anyway you follow my drift on this. So, if the threading on the T-nuts is just metric standard i'll buy the rod and make my on studs by just cutting to length but i am expecting the worse.

thanks for answering and despite my complaining i am a great fan of the Deckel machine. if i had the tooling i would be happy as a clam with my machine and have no envy of those with a bridgeport or a tree mill.
noahjlb

I'm in much the same boat. Does anyone have specs for the factory t-nuts and bolts? I expect to make do with some sort of reasonable compromise, but would like the info nonetheless. Very possibly there's something quite close that's affordable, or nearly so.
Any Deckel owners out there with suggestions of where to look for accessories? I mean is there any tool dealer more likely than others to have parts for FP1s? Or is it strictly a crapshoot?
TIA,
Jack

Noahjlb and Jack,

I hope that they are just standard metric threads, I'm sure that would make it much easier. When either one of you get tired of fooling around with them pesky Deckel's, just send one of 'em down my way! I won't complain! No, not at all!

Brian (still looking for one of my very own!)

I have another solution to adapt standard 40-taper tooling to the deckel spindle. Make adapter studs with M20x2 buttress threads one end, the other end threaded to fit your toolholder. It may be neccesary to shorten the small end of the toolholder (not on BT40). I did this on 10-15 toolhoders, saved me the trouble of having a double set of drawbars for both spindles and the dividing head. You need metric threading capabilities on your lathe to make the adapters. Metric buttress threads are specified in Machinery's Handbook.

The original DECKEL tool holders effectively have a particular threading wich is not DECKEL spécific though. It is best known - in France at least- under the name of "artillery thread" (I hope the translation will do the trick), and was designed to handle severe loads a more efficient way than conventional threads do.
It is the same kind of thread that you find on SCHAUBIN collets.
The artillery thread profile is half-triangular, so that the flat side supports the efforts without any risk of slipping... I hope you get the picture,since you can imagine how hard it is to explain it in a foreign language for me ?
Anyway, if someone's interested, I think I have some tech datas about this particular kind of thread.
Btw, I can't figure out why so much questions about the T-nut threading for the FP-1 T nuts ? I would just have machined T nuts drill and thread them with the most conventional thread type in my area, so that I can mate them with any bolts of my shop (or do I miss something?).
I suggest things would be easier If you were decided to join the euro-metric gang and end up with these odd inches, 9/16, 7/24, 4/32 & whatever... (just joking).

[This message has been edited by T. NGUYEN BINH (edited 08-25-2002).]

Ole.steen,

I love your idea. I actually already thought of it and had purchased two end mill holders..one an ISO 40 CAT V flange end mill holder and the other an NMBT 40 end mill holder with the idea of making adaptor studs for whichever one had the best fit in my machine. I ran into two problems with this idea.

The first problem came when it was suggested to me by a local machinist that some Deckels don't have standard metric threading (see message above by T.Nguyen Binh about "artillery" threading in Deckel tools). I had already purchased an M20 x 2 die to make the adaptor studs. I will try the die but i have my doubts that the threading will work. Do you know where I can get a die (Europe ?) that would allow me to make M20 x 2 buttress threads ? I have a lathe but i don't have the metric thread cutting gears for it.

The second problem has to do with the "flat" at the base of the V flange on Deckel tool holders. My CAT V flange end mill holder fits perfectly into the deckel spindle without alteration except for the need of an adaptor stud and the flat area at the base of the V flange. This flat seems to function to give the tool holder a tight fit into the spindle. How did you get around this problem ?

I tried to enclose a scan of my CAT 40 V flange end mill holder next to an original deckel stubor arbor tool with the machined flat area in this post but don't know how to add photos. I will try to send you a separate email with a photo of the two holders to illustrate what i am referring to.

thank you
noahjlb

The thread on the Deckel drawbar is 20x2mm buttress thread, this is an asymmetrical thread with 3deg and 33 deg flak angle for the loadbearing and the non-loadbearing side of the thread respectively. If you look very closely on the thread against a white background you will see the shape. The idea is that this thread can take more load than a regular thread in one direction, but less in the other. To make an adapter stud you must grind your own single-point tool and make the threads in a lathe with metric threading capability. Take extra care with feeds and lube, as the included angle of the tool is smaller than a regular threading tool (very pointed).

I have never tried to adapt cat40 tools to Deckel, only BT40 and iso40. If there is interference problems with the flange you may have a problem. Solve by grinding -?

Addendum:
The buttress threads are known in German as "sägegewinde" ("saw threads"), and as Nguyen pointed out, "artillery threads" in franch. I think they may be used for fitting barrels to locks in cannons. I don't think you will find dies for these threads anywhere. It is much easier to find a friend with a metric lathe. Alternatively, you may just as well get some metric changegears for your lathe, and have the extra bonus...(making tools to make tools to make tools...)

I have adapted cat40 toolholders with adapter studs. I don't have metric threading capability on my lathe, but I did have a mangled deckel collet. I cut the threads off the collet and welded a 5/8 threaded stud into the cut off thread portion. Works well- no problems with the cat40 holders...

well, I'm amused and sympathetic, as I went through the same circus when I got my Aciera F1 home, and found that the colllets have a metric buttress thread as well. They are W12, and I broke down and bought some from Schaublin. You know the prices from Switzerland. I have to figure out how to get mills to fit on the metric horizontal arbor, now. Any ideas?
I'm still trying to mate an Albrecht chuck with J2 by W12 Spindle, and making a boring head, etc.
Anyone please tell me where to buy W12 stuff?

You can get W 12 stuff used from Dave Sobel in Closter, NJ. If you are nearby, go there on a Saturday morning. You'll meet many similar gearheads. His address is:

93 Garry Road
Closter, NJ 07624
Ph: 974 768 9645

Regards Bill Bonta

I got my Tee-nut set from Carr-Lane. They sold either individual pieces or your standard "set" that included a holder. These are US Made, I believe, but wherever they are from they work quite well. As with all commercial sets, the threads "stop short" so that you do not bottom out and start wedging the tee up onto the underside of the slot. That is one advantage to the 'make your own' Tee nuts.

I seem to recall that I paid something like $90 for the set +/-. It was more expensive than your plain Jane 5/8" Bridgeport, but it works great!

Alan

I got a request for the part number of the set.... Seeing as I am at home now I can get this stuff out to everyone. The P/N for the kit is "CL-20-CK". This is a 12mm table slot sized tee-nut setup and has 3/8x16 studs. The kit is a bit more than I said... $137.81 a few years ago. That includes:

24 studs of different length
6 Tee nuts
6 flange nuts
4 coupling nuts
6 step blocks
6 step clamps
1 holder for all of above

(that is from the catalog description). Carr-Lane can be found at www.carrlane.com

Alan

P.S. I wanted to post pictures of some of my stuff, but I can't figure out how... any hints?

Great news! I just found a cheapo Tee nut set on the web. Typically finding the 12mm sets that work on the Deckel tables is a bit of a chore. I posted some information on US made ones recently, but they are 130+/- dollars. The ones I just found are imports (OK, just trying to give options) and cost just $40. The URL is:

http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1144

Alan

I have just listed an extra overarm and bracket for a Deckel dividing head on eBay. I didn't really think of finding out if someone here wanted it until after the fact. Opps. Anyhow, I can always end the auction early if someone is interested. The specifics are:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1785737777