FP1 Riser on an FPS 300 M
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    Default FP1 Riser on an FPS 300 M

    Check it out:

    20190312_073703.jpg

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    Hi Deckeleers,

    David,

    I did ask you in a previous thread if FPS markets a riser to fit their machines but you did not respond to answer this question!

    Without any explanation from you, The FP1 riser casting without gears that you have shown in the photo seems to be sitting on the Y axis but this begs the question, does the riser accurately fit the dovetails on your machine as it would on an original FP1 and can it be clamped to the Y axis properly?

    Another question that comes to mind when looking at the length of the dovetails on the Y axis, these are much longer than on the original FP1 but the clamping screws seem to be in the correct position for the FP1 heads. This is puzzling, can you tell us what the extra length of the dovetails are intended for?

    Is the drive gear in the Y axis in the correct position to drive the FP1 heads and what is the number of teeth and profile of the gear? Is it a 39 tooth 14.5 PA gear as on the FP1 machines or 20 PA as on the FP2? Does it have dual gearing so that FP2 heads can be used on it?

    Did you purchase an FPS vertical head with your new machine, if so, it would be informative if you could post some photos of it together with the FP1 riser for comparison.

    The FPS machines look to be very interesting albeit costing an arm and a leg, unfortunately their website isn`t very informative so we look forward to hearing about the interchangeability between the original FP1 and FP2 haads and the FPS machines.

    Alan

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    Pretty sure that machine and its photo were not taken by the OP, at least not at his shop..
    Electrical service on the wall looks to be European..., and the poster on the wall suggests same.....
    In addition there is what looks to be a "flip head" FP-NC in the background....don't believe the OP owns such....

    Pretty sure the above questions were previously answered as to the gearing....FPS carried the specs of the FP1 forward in that the drive gearing is at 14 1/2* p.a.
    As to the long dovetail on the "Y" ...That is how the late Deckels are made. Allows moving the vertical head to the rear on the dovetail when mounting accessories.
    Eliminates the need to remove the vertical head when fitting other accessories.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Photo was taken by FPS in germany in their shop as part of their testing of this configuration on my behalf (confirmed to work). That is a fully functional FP1 Riser including gears that they have agreed to sell to me and ship with FPS 300 M later this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bentley1930 View Post
    Hi Deckeleers,

    David,

    I did ask you in a previous thread if FPS markets a riser to fit their machines but you did not respond to answer this question!

    Without any explanation from you, The FP1 riser casting without gears that you have shown in the photo seems to be sitting on the Y axis but this begs the question, does the riser accurately fit the dovetails on your machine as it would on an original FP1 and can it be clamped to the Y axis properly?

    Another question that comes to mind when looking at the length of the dovetails on the Y axis, these are much longer than on the original FP1 but the clamping screws seem to be in the correct position for the FP1 heads. This is puzzling, can you tell us what the extra length of the dovetails are intended for?

    Is the drive gear in the Y axis in the correct position to drive the FP1 heads and what is the number of teeth and profile of the gear? Is it a 39 tooth 14.5 PA gear as on the FP1 machines or 20 PA as on the FP2? Does it have dual gearing so that FP2 heads can be used on it?

    Did you purchase an FPS vertical head with your new machine, if so, it would be informative if you could post some photos of it together with the FP1 riser for comparison.

    The FPS machines look to be very interesting albeit costing an arm and a leg, unfortunately their website isn`t very informative so we look forward to hearing about the interchangeability between the original FP1 and FP2 haads and the FPS machines.

    Alan
    The FPS 300 M is a very close clone of the last generation of Deckel FP1 Aktiv Digital shipped. For the most part, all FP1 accessories will work with it.

    I will have all the original FP1 accessories once I put this kit together with these exceptions:
    - no punch milling kit (not needed)
    - no copying device (not needed)
    - going with NSK Planet grinder in replace of the Deckel fine grinding head, more elegant solution
    - going with Albrecht fine drilling attachment versus the Deckel flavor
    - going with two Benz-Tools angle heads instead of the Deckel angle head, modern tooling and more flexible
    - adding an NSK high-speed spindle
    - adding a Wako Stuttgart 60 Rotary Milling Head
    - in addition to the Deckel high speed head, will also be building an adaptation to mount Rusnok high-speed head
    - adding Walter Uhl centering microscope
    - adding Wohlhaupter UPA 4

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    Impressive list...seems like you are going to need at last 3000 sq ft. to store all that kit..............

    What, no spiral milling attachment slotting head,or 2037 "universal circular table, or did i miss those from an earlier list...



    Cheers Ross

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    Probably a good idea to avoid Deckel's freq drive grinding motors, but the Deckel LKS head does a lot more than a NSK on it's own... Whether you need the LKS's capability is your call.

    As someone who uses amd loves Deckel's low profile 15" rotary table (and occas it's dividing plates) I'd encourage you to add it to your list if not already present. I also own Deckel's optical table, but have never used, so can't stir the pot with that... ;-)

    Lucky7

    Hope the OP shows plenty of pics when his mill arrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Impressive list...seems like you are going to need at last 3000 sq ft. to store all that kit..............

    What, no spiral milling attachment slotting head,or 2037 "universal circular table, or did i miss those from an earlier list...



    Cheers Ross
    Note the phrase "I have ALL the original FP1 accessories"....so that "ALL" covers the following which will be in my kit:
    - horizontal over-arm with complete set of arbors, both metric and inch (inch being custom built by FPS)
    - vertical head
    - high-speed head
    - slotting head
    - precision boring head
    - corner milling head
    - spiral machining attachment with complete set of templates
    - fixed table
    - swiveling fixed table
    - swiveling turntable with indexing attachment (e.g. universal table)
    - indexing head with counter-support
    - placed rotary table

    Tooling (all DIN 69871):
    - Albrecht APC milling chucks with full set of collets
    - Haimer 3D sensors, Haimer Centro
    - Haimer ER16/ER40 collet chucks with full set of ER collets
    - Haimer weldon chucks
    - Haimer face mill, shell mill, combination arbors
    - Dormer quick-change tapping chucks
    - Seco Capto C5
    - Llambrich drill chucks

    I've got some innovative ideas for storage of accessories, more details to follow......

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    Probably a good idea to avoid Deckel's freq drive grinding motors, but the Deckel LKS head does a lot more than a NSK on it's own... Whether you need the LKS's capability is your call.

    As someone who uses amd loves Deckel's low profile 15" rotary table (and occas it's dividing plates) I'd encourage you to add it to your list if not already present. I also own Deckel's optical table, but have never used, so can't stir the pot with that... ;-)

    Lucky7

    Hope the OP shows plenty of pics when his mill arrives.
    I looked long and hard at the Deckel precision grinding head, but given that I want to avoid grinding as much as possible, and how it was unclear how to properly mount the NSK to the grinding head, have decided to pass on that for now.....

    Pictures, YES, of course

    OK, OK, I admit it, I don't have the optical table

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    OK, OK, I admit it, I don't have the optical table
    If you have the collector's bug, these are available in Germany and turn up on a regular basis on Ebay in good condition for around or under 500 Euros. In fact there is one available now for 350 here:
    Optischer Rundtisch D 305 mm fur Deckel LK | eBay
    Here is another one:
    Deckel Rundtisch in Sendling - Obersendling | Heimwerken. Heimwerkerbedarf gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen
    (Note I have no connection to or knowledge of either seller.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    If you have the collector's bug, ...
    I'm not a collector. I'm focused 100% on production equipment and accessories, I'm snagging older Deckel FP1 accessories where they will help, but for the most part my FPS 300 M kit is composed of new stuff. I don't see the point of the optical table given the quality of the DRO on this new mill. I do however appreciate your showing me the links

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    The FPS 300 M is a very close clone of the last generation of Deckel FP1 Aktiv Digital shipped. For the most part, all FP1 accessories will work with it.

    I will have all the original FP1 accessories once I put this kit together.

    - in addition to the Deckel high speed head, will also be building an adaptation to mount Rusnok high-speed head

    - adding Wohlhaupter UPA 4
    Hi Deckeleers,

    David, still trying to find out what vertical head you are going to use. Please correct me if i`m wrong!

    deckel-fp1-v-head-limit-forward.jpg

    I`m assuming that you are not purchasing the FPS vertical head but are going to use a second hand FP1 head. According to Ross the extra length of the Y axis dovetails is to slide back the vertical head out of the way but you will find that if you use an early type of FP1 head you will need to remove the stop on the front of the head and remove or modify the protective guard around the head drive gear to enable it to be slid beyond the Y axis drive gear as shown above part section through the head body. Please ignore the lettering in red.
    JUST REALIZED THAT THE FLANGE ON THIS EARLY HEAD WILL NOT ENABLE IT TO BE SLID BACK. YOU WILL HAVE TO USE A LATER TYPE OF HEAD THAT IS DESIGNED TO DO THIS!

    dscn1475.jpg

    I`m surprised that you are considering fitting a Rusnok head as this is not as sophisticated or useful as the high speed head that you already have! I had considered fitting a Rusnock or Bridgeport cherrying head on the Deckel high speed head body that I have. which could be easily could have been done by making up a simple adapter but decided against this when I was able to purchase the head that originally came with the body.

    Of course, you will be able to also fit the FP2 high speed head to your machine.

    Yes, as I found out, the Wally 4 is more versatile than the wally 3 that is recommended for the FP1.

    Alan

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    Most of the standard accessories are coming new from FPS including the vertical head which ships standard, and thus has no problems sliding back.

    The Rusnok idea is to adapt a used FP1 high-speed head, remove the OEM spindle, manufacture an adapter, and mount the Rusnok. Why am I doing this? Kinda like why one might climb Mt Everest, because its there...I've got the Rusnok and tooling, and I like some aspects of the Rusnok, this is mostly just an experiment.....I will also have another FPS refurbished FP1 high-speed head which will stay unchanged and used in the traditional manner.

    UPA 4 was chosen because that is what matches the native tooling of the FPS 300 M, e.g. SK40/DIN 69871

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    I don't see why it's a problem to mount a Rusnok head on a Deckel. It's just a machine. As long as it cuts metal efficiently and accurately within it's capacity.

    l7

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    UPA 4 was chosen because that is what matches the native tooling of the FPS 300 M, e.g. SK40/DIN 69871
    Actually i believe that the UPA3 was the standard "kit" for the FP1. Not to say that the "4" won't work fine...it is bigger and uses up more head room and for smaller work might be a bit clunky.

    Have several UPA3's here and use them all the time including on my FP4NC....Have bored 10" holes with the "3" with zero issues.....
    The way i do mine is i have a short (one set screw) Weldon style holder ,1" bore. Wally head has a 1" straight shank and is held in the weldon holder when running on the NC....

    When i need a boring head for the FP3,or FP2, i simply drop the boring head out of the tool holder and clamp the shank directly with the normal Deckel 1" spring collet....

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky7 View Post
    I don't see why it's a problem to mount a Rusnok head on a Deckel. It's just a machine. As long as it cuts metal efficiently and accurately within it's capacity.

    l7
    Hi Deckeleers, I don`t remember anybody saying that there is a problem fitting the Rusnok head to the deckel. As I said in my post this can be achieved very easily using the Deckel high speed head body casting.

    I can appreciate that someone would want to use a vertical head that they already have but Just for information for forum members: the Rusnok heads came in various sizes but the heads that would be size compatible to the FP1 are rather basic and lacking in tool holding capacity.

    rusnok-side.jpg

    Above the original sketch for the Rusnok head patent. The whole spindle set up and bearings used are very basic and the head was originally intended to be a reasonably priced item.

    rusnok_st_pg-14.jpg

    This Rusnock head shown above would be about the right size for the Deckel. This "ST" head has a no 9 B&S taper spindle.

    The other head that could be used would be a Bridgeport "M"head.

    dscn1002.jpg

    dscn1005.jpg

    This nice M head was intended for my FP1 and it is a 6 speed version with a top speed of around 12,000 RPM, that`s double the speed of a Deckel high speed head but this spindle is only 2 morse taper and the Rusnock does not have a much larger capacity.

    So when I was able to buy the Deckel FP2 high speed head that was originally with the body that I showed mounted on my FP1 there was no doubt in my mind that the Deckel head was far superior to the Rusnock and Bridgeport M head because it comes with a int 40 spindle that could accommodate all those Deckel accessories.

    PS, does anybody want to buy a Bridgeport M head?

    Alan

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Actually i believe that the UPA3 was the standard "kit" for the FP1. Not to say that the "4" won't work fine...it is bigger and uses up more head room and for smaller work might be a bit clunky.

    Have several UPA3's here and use them all the time including on my FP4NC....Have bored 10" holes with the "3" with zero issues.....
    The way i do mine is i have a short (one set screw) Weldon style holder ,1" bore. Wally head has a 1" straight shank and is held in the weldon holder when running on the NC....

    When i need a boring head for the FP3,or FP2, i simply drop the boring head out of the tool holder and clamp the shank directly with the normal Deckel 1" spring collet....

    Cheers Ross
    I was aware of the UPA3 being standard for FP1. My thinking on the UPA4 was that since I could get it with native SK40/DIN 69871 it would be more rigid and better centered. In comparing the UPA4 versus UPA3, the UPA3 has 47mm more Z which I could see being helpful in some scenarios.

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    Here's a photo of one of my Rusnoks, just remove the head, and put it on the FP1 high-speed body:

    electro-mechano-refurbish.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    My thinking on the UPA4 was that since I could get it with native SK40/DIN 69871 it would be more rigid and better centered.
    The very principle of a boring head is to offset the tool, so the centering aspect is irrelevant for the choice of such an accessory.

    Plus consider the added overhang of a bigger boring head will take its toll on the rigidity of the whole setup, so that wathever gained with a massive attachment could very well be lost eslewhere...

    If you really want a big boring head, did you consider the UPA P50 ?

    travail-surfacage-carter-wohlhaupter-upa-p50-4-.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by drcoelho View Post
    I was aware of the UPA3 being standard for FP1. My thinking on the UPA4 was that since I could get it with native SK40/DIN 69871 it would be more rigid and better centered. In comparing the UPA4 versus UPA3, the UPA3 has 47mm more Z which I could see being helpful in some scenarios.
    Hi Deckeleers,

    Ross has compromised by using weldons to mount his wally 3 in, this is for convenience and can never be as rigid as having the wally mounted directly in the spindle by it`s dedicated SK40 shank!

    Alan


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