FP2 Spindle Assembly (lots of photos) - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Much of that stuff migrated to mwdropbox(dot)com.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Nice work T. Thanks for sharing .
    Nice photos....

    Rob:
    As to the old posting and the photos...for my part i used to use "Metal Working .com" they used to provide a dropbox free that hosted the photos.
    Well the site has changed and i have no idea where the old pictures went...That is why my stuff at least no longer shows...
    too bad really...
    Cheers Ross
    Dear all,

    Here are copies, I downloaded the thread to my computer with Firefox once.
    Hope that they put back on the original place by Ross.

    Best regards,
    Michael

    fp2spindle30.jpgfp2spindle31.jpgfp2spindle32.jpgfp2spindle33.jpgfp2spindle34.jpg

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    fp2spindle35.jpgfp2spindle36.jpgfp2spindle37.jpgfp2spindle38.jpgfp2spindle39.jpg

  4. #24
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    fp2spindle41.jpgfp2spindle42.jpgfp2spindle43.jpgfp2spindle44.jpgfp2spindle45.jpg

  5. #25
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    fp2spindle46.jpgfp2spindle47.jpg

    I think that were all of this thread

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    And the previous thread from Ross: FP2 Spindle Overhaul (lots of photos):

    fp2_handwheel.jpgfp2_lock_2.jpgfp2_lock_3.jpgfp2_lock_4.jpgfp2_lube.jpg

  7. #27
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    fp2_spindle18.jpgfp2spindle_24.jpgfp2spindle1.jpgfp2spindle3.jpgfp2spindle4.jpg

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    fp2spindle5.jpgfp2spindle6.jpgfp2spindle7.jpgfp2spindle8.jpgfp2spindle9.jpg

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    fp2spindle10.jpgfp2spindle11.jpgfp2spindle12.jpgfp2spindle13.jpgfp2spindle14.jpg

  10. #30
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    fp2spindle15.jpgfp2spindle17.jpgfp2spindle19.jpgfp2spindle20.jpgfp2spindle21.jpg

  11. #31
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    fp2spindle22.jpgfp2spindle23.jpgfp2spindle25.jpgfp2spindle26.jpgfp2spindle27.jpg

    I hope you all are happy, love do work Ross does.

  12. #32
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    Thank you!!

    Lucky7

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    Sorry for bringing this old topic back, but I decided to inline the images again to make it easier to parse. This is important information after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Got everything cleaned up ready to assemble.
    In my book this is the single most important part of a spindle overhaul.
    You have to get everything spotless. Remove any traces of the old grease and remove any dirt or oil.
    My technique goes something like this....
    First off everything goes to the solvent tank and i sue a soft brush and solvent to remove all the big chunks.
    Then i rinse in a tub of Simple Green. This get any solvent off and also can remove any remaining grease of dirt.
    Then i give the part a HOT water rinse and low pressure air dry.
    Parts are set in a sheet pan laid out on a lint free shop towel (the blue paper industrial ones made by Scott i think)
    I then cover the parts with another towel and set aside.

    Here is a close up of one of the threst bearings. These are precision bearings and the type used here has only one ground concave ball track. The opposite race is flat.
    This is done to prevent the thrust bearing form being a factor in the spindles rotation...the intent here is to allow all axial location to be dome by the needle bearings.



    Flat race with contact mark on surface...keep the thrust washer facing the way it was on dis assembly.



    Shot of the thrust balls with retainer. The retainer is made with an undercut that is a trap for old grease and dirt...be sure to clean every nook and cranny....
    Balls should look bright as polished chrome....Races shouls like wise be bright and free from any pits or surface blemishes in the running areas.





    I use an air engraver to mark the outside edges of the races and ball retainers so i can keep track of where everything came from. I keep a note sheet showing where the numbers fit in the assembly.
    On the needle roller cages i mark them as to "TOP" the way the cage was fitted on the spindle...don't want to mix anything up.

    I have rough cleaned all the parts, the spindle and the quill both inside and out....
    Now to get serious.
    Set aside a clean working area. A place free from drafts and open windows fans or air conditioning...you want still air a clean well lighted area away from chips and distractions.
    I like to put down a clean sheet of kraft paper on the bench top, layout the cooking sheet with the parts and have the tools i will need on the bench.
    The first assembly step for me is to check the spindle for wear.
    I use aresol can "Carburetor" cleaner to wash every part just before assembly, followed by "Brake" cleaner spray and a dry low pressure air or lens dust spray.....
    The reason for the two sprays is that i believe the carb cleaner cleans best, and has the best spray off power....but tends to eave a film on the parts...the Brake Clean seems to dry off clean....
    Note: all spray off of parts is done well away form the work area...
    I assemble the spindle DRY first..no lube on anything. I use dry industrial paper towels to wipe both the inner and outer races of spindle and quill.
    The object here is to test the size and wear on the needle rollers, and for that things must be dry.

    Here is the spindle with both needle roller cages fitted along with the lower thrust bearing. The thrust bearings are needed ot properly locate the spindle relative to the quill so that the rollers will be tested where they will run.



    The quill is then just dropped over the spindle , then the upper thrust bearing installed along with the spacer washer and top adjusting nut. The nut is tightened up to leave everything just loose with some end play between the quill and spindle.

    More to follow...
    Cheers Ross
    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Shot of the quill and dry spindle ready for a test assembly.......





    Assembled quill with all needles and thrust bearings fitted...this style spindle is a bit different from some i have seen. some have both thrust bearings above the needle bearings. This one seems perhaps a bit better as it gives a wider spacing between the needle rollers cages and might result in a stiffer package...
    The process again is to lower the quill over the needle rollers and lower thrust baring..it jsut slips together with very little force if everything is correct.
    Then you load in the upper thrust bearing being careful to fit everything in the correct order. (the thrust bearings are directional)

    With the thrust (upper ) in place the spacer wahser is fitted and then the top adjusting nut. Leave the adjusting nut just loose, so that you can feel end float in the spindle.





    Once the spindle is assembled the next step is to measure the needle clearance.
    This is a dynamic test...ie you are looking for the relative amount of movement between the spindle nose and the quill.

    I use my 6" kurt vise to gently hold the quill...almost zero force here.
    Easy to squeeze the quill and make the readings not meaningful.
    I put a tenths reading indicator against the quill on the moving jaw side and snug until i just touch the quill without seeing any indicator movement....
    Then i move the indicator to the spindle nose and using hand pressure push the spindle from side to side....



    The spec given to me is that the movement at the nose should be around .010-.015 mm (.0003-.0005")

    The test is done at different rotational spots on the spindle. Any change of reading would indicate a spindle worn out of round.
    Fiurther teh test is done changing the position of the quill...(rotate) so as to sheck if it is oval.....
    This assembly measured in at just under .0003" of play ..very nice!

    More to follow........
    Cheers Ross
    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Additional poto of test on spindle play with bry bearings installed.
    A better setup would have been to hse the vertical head housing to hold the quill and i have done this in the past. Here however because of other work going on with the machine i did not have the head housing available. It was fitted to the machine at home.



    Once the clearance/wear test is done if any size correction were to be needed this is the time. Wear and excessive play can be corrected by fitting larger needle rollers. There were markings on these cages that indicated the relative size of the rollers...Deckel tech's have sheets telling the size of the rollers based on these marks so making the correct change can be done.
    Believe Don Sentner has a supply of needle rollers and cages in different sizes.
    If a roller change is made a re test of the clearance as above should be done...do not make the fit too tight it will cause trouble and potential failure.

    After testing it is time to do a final assembly. The spindle is taken apart again and cleaned again, and grease applied to the roller cages/rollers and the thrust balls/cages.







    Look at the above photos.. note how little grease there is applied to the cages and rollers/balls. Too much lube here is a bad thing. Excess grease will cause the rollers to skid and overheat in short order. A little of the correct grease goes a long ways.



    I used the Isoflex "Supertel" on this spindle. If it had been toward the upper end of the wear range i would have opted to use a heavier grease...."Isoflex NBU 15"


    Once the bearings are greased, time to final fit the quill.

    More follows........
    Cheers Ross

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    On the last part now....
    Assemble the quill to the spindle just as when doing teh "dry" assembly: Fit the lower needle cage, lower thrust bearing then upper needle cage unit. Lower the quill on to the spindle and fit the upper thrust bearing, spacer and adjusting nut.

    Run the nut up until almost tight.
    I snug the clamp screws just a bit to make the nut slightly stiff to turn.

    Clamp the end of the spindle in the vise or other holding fixture and setup your indicator on the end of the quill.





    The object here is to adjust the nut to have .005mm (.0002")of end float between the quill and spindle.
    This takes a little work as the bearings now have grease . Pushing and then pulling on the quill will show the movement but be careful to allow time to settle as you push...I push in one direction then zero the indicator then pull the opposite direction. At each end of stroke i give a little back and forth rotation to make sure the balls are full down in the grease.
    Adjust to give .0002" end float...DO NOT OVER TIGHTEN .....these thrust bearings need clearance to live.
    Tighten the locking screws and re test to make sure nothing has changed.

    The spindle is now ready for install and break in.
    You should rotate the spindle by hand and check for ease adn freedom of movement...
    ANY glitch or rough feeling on hand turning is a problem and needs to be corrected.
    Rough spots in rotation are almost always the result of dirt in the package and you should immediately disassemble and clean everything re apply new grease and re assemble.......

    Re fitting to the machine is the reverse of removal...be sure to lube the outside of the quill when applying to the head casting......

    Cheers Ross

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  15. #34
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    Wow! Thank you, I was very disappointed by the missing photos. Life is better now.

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    I have a FP1 with so-so spindle, even after rebuilt. I have a FP2 vertical head that seems in great condition, after lots of measuring and fitting - the spindles are interchangable except for the top part of the spindle - where the slot for the key is; that has a larger diameter on the FP2 spindle. I am soooo tempted to grind/turn it down to size ... crazy?

  18. #36
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    Boats:
    You are forgetting about the differences in the drive gearing geometry....
    They will not interchange. Must make some sort of compromise gear to work with the 14.5* pressure angle FP1 gears and drive the FP2 vertical.
    Cheers Ross.

  19. #37
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    Just re-read your post above, and think i misunderstood what you were planning to do.
    Are you thinking of swapping the spindle assemblies ...Fit the FP2 unit into your FP1 vertical head casting.

    If so, be careful. My belief is that the spindles (quill) was finished on the OD. May be differences here as to exact size that each were finished to .
    Its my belief that the finished quill was fit to the casting by honing or lapping.
    End result is that there might be small differences between the two parts (quills) that might complicate the swap.
    Careful measurement of the two would tell the story.
    If the FP2 assembly is a bit larger, then the FP1 housing could be honed or lapped to make the difference. But if the FP2 quill is smaller, a loose fit would result
    giving vibration and poor cutting performance.

    Cheers Ross

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  21. #38
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    Yes Ross, talking about the entire quill and then the top part of the spindle as it fits into the two bearings in the vertical head. The FP2 quill is a snug fit in the FP1 head, but I hear you about the lapping, will check the clearance when I have some time.

  22. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Its my belief that the finished quill was fit to the casting by honing or lapping.
    Evidence of that can be found in the parts manuals, where the head casting and quill are listed as a set with the same reference number.

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  24. #40
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    I suppose the same problem would then arise if I were to (hypothetically!) get a replacement quill from Herr Singer!


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