FP2 vertical table and support tear-down and reassembly
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    Default FP2 vertical table and support tear-down and reassembly

    Dear Group,

    Two of the more experienced people here (Ross and Peter) have encouraged me to remove my FP2's table and support so that I can clean and inspect them properly. Indications are that the oil passages are clogged with grease, and there is something odd with the bottom few cm of the Z motion (it's too tight).

    Erik asked me to start a separate thread for this, so here we go. This thread may go on for a while, depending upon how long this takes. Please feel free to chime in with comments or questions.

    Some relevant information can be found in this thread about my FP2 (repairing damage to the Y feed) and a second thread about adjustments. I also found this old thread about removing and rebuilding an FP2 table and support. At this juncture I don't plan to try and fix any problems with geometry due to excessive wear, simply to clean, measure, and inspect.

    I'll post photos as I go. Here are the first couple, taking off the horizontal table (the red strap is a safety in case the white rope breaks)

    img_1951.jpg

    and the vertical table after some attention with a brass brush and WD40

    [img_1953.jpg

    More to follow over the next days.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    I got to spend some hours today and got started on removing the X-axis and table. First order of business was to install a 48mm high platform under the mill. This is for several purposes:

    -- distribute the weight better on my shop floor (22mm OSB on 50mm rigid foam on concrete)
    -- lift the oil drain for the Z-screw sump, so I can get a drain pan underneath
    -- provide a hard smooth surface under the mill so I can put it on rollers if needed

    Here's the base. It's made from two layers of 24mm film-faced plywood, which is normally used for making concrete forms and as flooring and decking for semi trailers. I picked this because it strong and stable, will not absorb oil or fluids from the face side, and I had some large scraps at hand.

    img_1954.jpg

    Up goes the mill. It's very comfortable to lift in this configuration (without the vertical head or horizontal table)

    img_1959.jpg

    And now I can drain the oil; the notch in the base let's me put in a pan. I also ran some kerosine through afterwards, to get out some of the gook. I'll clean this further after the bevel gear and Z-axis nut are removed, later in the game.

    img_1973.jpg

    Next step was removing the Heindenhain DRO. This is not functioning, though I am optimistic that the problem is with the control unit and can be fixed.

    Z axis:
    img_1975.jpg

    X axis:
    img_1970.jpg

    Now I started removing the X-axis screw -- continued in the next post.
    Last edited by ballen; 12-29-2013 at 12:41 AM.

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    Following the directions, I drove out the tapered pin from the left-hand handwheel and started removing hardware. The first problem came with the "toothed" coupling (as is normally used in a clutch). The instructions said to remove this from the shaft, but it was stuck on TIGHT. After various failed attempts at persuation.I was going to turn a puller in the lathe, but decided to try to improvise one to save time. It worked! The chuck is a 5-inch Logan 3-jaw and I am using a machine foot to push on the central shaft:

    img_1994.jpg

    Here is the coupling coming off:

    img_1996.jpg

    And the coupling itself:

    img_1999.jpg

    The next hard part to remove was the externally-threaded retaining ring that holds the bronze lead-axis nut in place. This has four holes around its periphery, but all of these were damaged to some degree (enlarged and deformed) from mis-treatment in the past.

    Note that there are two ~8mm diameter steel rods which carry the bellows. They run the full length of the vertical table, and are captured by the two table ends. One is visible in the next photo.

    img_2004.jpg

    I didn't have the right size face-pin spanner for the retainer. Of the several that I had, the one which was the best fit simply got twisted:

    img_2032.jpg

    I will probably replace this nut with one that has undamaged holes or is better-designed for removal. After inspecting, I think that the retainer ring originally had 4mm holes.

    Continued in the next post!
    Last edited by ballen; 12-29-2013 at 12:28 AM.

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    Eventually I got the retaining ring free by using a punch to turn it (ouch!):

    img_2007.jpg

    And then put a block of hardwood between the support and the end cover and drove the nut out

    img_2008.jpg

    Moving over to the other side, the cap nut over the handle had been overtorqued, eventually I clamped a board to the handle to hold the handle fast, so I could free the nut. I was afraid to try and trap the spindle using the taper-pin through-hole at the other end (4 mm nominal) because I thought that this might deform/damage that hole.

    img_2010.jpg

    The hex nut was also over-torqued, but here I did use the cross hole to hold the shaft. Note that the hand wheel I have does not correspond to the manual or parts diagram. I suspect that it is not original but was added later. In addition, the hole through the axis is not tapered, but conventional, and the handle is retained with a split pin, not a tapered pin.

    img_2015.jpg

    Finally I was able to remove the hardware from the right side of the lead screw.

    img_2016.jpg

    Final post for today to follow!
    Last edited by ballen; 12-29-2013 at 12:43 AM.

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    The last part today was taking off the cover from the left-hand-side of X. This would have been easy except that one of the four nuts that holds it in place (the top one) is almost entirely inaccessible. The axis screw and the two bellow support rods block access almost entirely, so that one can not spin a wrench. Here you see the bottom three nuts; they are threaded on studs set into the ends of the vertical table.

    img_2021.jpg

    Fortunately I have five different sorts of 17mm wrenches, and eventually I found a combination of three of them which I could use to turn the nut, in spite of the fact that there are only about 5 degrees of motion possible and not enough space for a socket wrench.

    Here is the cover coming off

    img_2023.jpg

    In the following photos, both bellow carrier rods are visible
    img_2025.jpg

    And in this photo the top bellow carrier rod has been removed

    img_2027.jpg

    and the axis screw and nut and bellows support rods after removal and some cleaning.

    img_2036.jpg

    The ball bearing in the end cap (an SKF6003) is quite worn. Since they cost very little I have ordered a replacement.

    When I put everything back together, I will probably find a way to put some pressure on the bellows support rods (springs or compression nylon screws) to prevent them from rattling, as a way to reduce vibration and noise.

    Questions for the experts:

    -- After removing the gibs can I pull the vertical table straight away from the support? Or does it need to slide off the end?
    [EDIT: the vertical table must be slid off the RIGHT end, it can not be pulled straight away from the support because there
    is no clearance for the trip lever that stops X motion.

    -- I might make another retaining nut for the bronze nut, thicker than the original and with deeper (and undamaged!) holes for a pin spanner. Has anyone else done something similar?

    -- Is there some trick for removing the top nut of the four holding on the end-cap? Perhaps I should buy one of those wrenches that has an internal ratchet ring for this.

    -- The X axis lead screw and nut combo have considerable axial play (I have not measured it, but suspect at least 0.3mm). I could replace the nut for about 125 Euros, or just live with it. Since the long term plan is to have a working DRO, I'm not sure it matters much. Opinions?

    -- I'm surprised that the lead screw nut has no positive stop (a key) to prevent rotation. Seems very un-Deckel-ish.

    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Last edited by ballen; 12-29-2013 at 12:02 PM.

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    A few more hours in the workshop today, and the vertical table is off. Here are the remaining steps.

    First, I removed the gibs:

    img_2046.jpg

    Then I tied the table to my chain lift and removed the top keeper plates

    img_2050.jpg

    However when I tried to swing the vertical table away from the support, it failed

    img_2051.jpg

    The reason is that underneath the vertical table is the lever and pin which stop the feed in the X direction. The table can only be removed in the direction TOWARDS the operator, where there is a slot through which the lever pin can slide, as shown here:

    img_2053.jpg

    So the CORRECT way to remove the vertical table is in the following post...
    Last edited by ballen; 12-30-2013 at 12:53 AM.

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    Here is the correct sequence:

    -- (optional, not required) remove X-axis lock handle and right-hand cover

    img_2039.jpg

    -- remove the X-axis stops from underneath the vertical table
    -- put a support table underneath the vertical table
    -- lower the vertical table onto the support table

    img_2056.jpg

    -- loosen or remove the left and right keepers from the top of the vertical table

    img_2062.jpg

    Note that these keepers are the only place I have found on the mill so far, where the scraping marks have been worn away, in this case in the central portion. This can be seen in the photo above. It makes sense that these keepers would wear, because they carry much of the cantilevered weight of the horizontal table. The corresponding scraped area on the central support still have scraping marks along its entire length; perhaps the keepers are made of softer steel so that they are sacrificially worn. I measured the difference in thickness of the keepers between the worn and the scraped ends. For both I can measure about 0.001 - 0.002" of difference (.025 - 0.05mm). I wonder if it would be worth having these keepers re-ground and/or re-scraped to compensate.

    -- slide vertical table onto support table. I estimate that the vertical table weighs about 90 kg. Here is a photo of the vertical table, upside down, after some cleanup

    img_2063.jpg

    Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to remove the Z-axis support structure.

    PS: what is this plug in the top right rear corner of the vertical table? It is also visible from underneath at the "bottom right" of table in the previous photo.

    img_2042.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post

    PS: what is this plug in the top right rear corner of the vertical table? It is also visible from underneath at the "bottom right" of table in the previous photo.
    That "plug" is a spring loaded plunger that protects and covers the locating dowel bore and thread for the gauge block measuring setup. You should be able to push the plunger down and it should return via a spring....There is a cast part that mounts above and to the rear (slightly) of the "X" axis into a dovetail on the vertical slide....It is a soft of trough where one places their measuring blocks to give positive moves. The Dowel hole on the slide sets the location for the moving stop that works against the blockslying in the cast trough.... Pretty sure you have the long casting (Saw it in photos you posted of the tooling)..often the table stop block is missing.
    The DRO ,if working, makes the gauge block setup redundant.

    As to the retaining plate gibs....Could be re-scraped. If reground you need to be careful to make the worn surface dead parallel with the inside face of the plate.....
    On my FP2, I fitted Turcite on the top of the way surface of the Vertical slide that supports the weight of the table....The early FP2's have a complex way setup on the "X" slide. Use both a tapered dovetail gib,
    and a flat tapered gib....Later versions did away with the flat gib and just used the dovetail.....Later versions also used Turcite on the face of the rear vertical plate gibs for the vertical slide.....Helps reduce friction and wear.

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Thanks for picking up the thread. I've made more progress today (the support is off) and after answering your post will continue with my step-by-step report.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    That "plug" is a spring loaded plunger that protects and covers the locating dowel bore and thread for the gauge block measuring setup. You should be able to push the plunger down and it should return via a spring.
    Ahhh, OK. I'll have a closer look.

    As to the retaining plate gibs....Could be re-scraped. If reground you need to be careful to make the worn surface dead parallel with the inside face of the plate.....
    I'll talk with some local pros about this. It's probably not the right place for me to do "on the job training". But I'll photograph and measure the wear on the different support parts, and would appreciate advice about what the best ways might be to address it.

    The early FP2's have a complex way setup on the "X" slide. Use both a tapered dovetail gib,
    and a flat tapered gib
    I believe that this is the version that I have. On the "door side" of the vertical table there are two tapered gibs, an upper one in the dovetail and a lower one in the box way.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Today I removed the vertical support.

    -- Removed the Z-axis stops. One of the pins remained behind, I will probably pull or drill it out

    img_2067.jpg

    img_2068.jpg

    -- For fun I removed the oil nipples: you can see that they are full of grease. I then injected some oil directly into the openings behind the grease nipples. Black grease came oozing out of the oil passages and the pinhole in the sight glass:

    img_2069.jpg

    img_2071.jpg

    img_2072.jpg

    Continued in the next post...

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    Next step, I loosened the two vertical support retainers. By the way, what is the function of the blued-steel pin at the top of the door-side retainer, pointing towards the rear of the machine?

    img_2075.jpg

    I decided to remove the Z-axis handwheel and hardware to prevent damage later. The only way to get off the rotating indicator wheel (middle of photo below) was to also remove the fixed one behind it (right hand side of photo below). To my surprise the fixed indicator dial is simply pressed on to a steel sleeve but not fixed or retained in any way. I would have expected at least a set-screw.

    img_2079.jpg

    The support was now rigged for lifting. The wood pieces are retained with a piece of M10 threaded rod. The wood piece at the left is to prevent the lifting strap from sliding off the support. Load is carried by the multicolored strap. The white rope is a safety. The red strapping is to prevent the ropes from sliding or moving.

    img_2080.jpg

    img_2081.jpg

    img_2082.jpg

    Continued in next post...

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    One can see that the support has been worked on in the past: one of the six cover screws does not match the other five!

    img_2085.jpg

    Here is my first look inside the support, from the back. Note the missing nut from the stud of the gray bearing housing! Everything is full of black grease...

    img_2086.jpg

    Here is the drive and clutch for the X direction, again full of grease.

    img_2087.jpg

    And lubrication passages for the Z ways, full of grease.

    img_2088.jpg

    Tomorrow I'll put a big pan underneath this and start washing off grease with kerosene/parrafin/petroleum. I'll try and clear the oil passages by blowing compressed air and WD40 through them.

    More to follow tomorrow!

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    Hi Bruce
    Great thread thanks for taking all the time to photograph and document everything. Looks like you will have a great mill when you are all done.
    Keep the information coming.
    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Next step, I loosened the two vertical support retainers. By the way, what is the function of the blued-steel pin at the top of the door-side retainer, pointing towards the rear of the machine?

    ...
    Black post is a positive limit stop for the "Z"
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post

    -- For fun I removed the oil nipples: you can see that they are full of grease. I then injected some oil directly into the openings behind the grease nipples. Black grease came oozing out of the oil passages and the pinhole in the sight glass:
    Everything well greased..as i called it......Here in the states i can see operators getting confused by the oil/grease fittings...But in Europe you guys are reputed to be smarter about these things....
    If that photo for the grease coming out of the sight glass is facing as it is in life then the glass is in upside down....That bleed hole should be on the top of the glass.....

    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post



    Here is my first look inside the support, from the back. Note the missing nut from the stud of the gray bearing housing! Everything is full of black grease...
    Bruce....Not a missing nut...That is the end of a taper pin, the thread is there to allow removal......Run a nut on an tighten and the pin will be extracted....important because the other side is blind!
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Bruce....Not a missing nut...That is the end of a taper pin, the thread is there to allow removal......Run a nut on an tighten and the pin will be extracted....important because the other side is blind!
    Cheers Ross
    Leave it to the Germans...there are times you can't help but admire their tenacity in design...self removing taper pins that do not require a punch...I love it...

    OTOH, it must require some type of Fritz Tool or Fritz Thread in the nut...just seems to easy otherwise...

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    Hi Ross,

    As always, thanks for following and for your help!

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Black post is a positive limit stop for the "Z"
    I'm confused -- what does it bear against? There is only empty air above that pin.

    I thought that the limit stop for Z is shown here.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    If that photo for the grease coming out of the sight glass is facing as it is in life then the glass is in upside down....That bleed hole should be on the top of the glass.
    You are correct, and indeed the bleed hole is at the top of the glass. But when I injected oil into the passages, I wasn't expecting that black worm to come crawling out. I heard it before I saw it, grabbed a paper towel, and caught it as it fell. So when I snapped the photo I was holding the paper towel well below the level where the grease worm exited!

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    That is the end of a taper pin, the thread is there to allow removal......Run a nut on an tighten and the pin will be extracted....important because the other side is blind!
    Thank you! This is my pay-back for the 30 minutes spent uploading the photos and text each day!

    Cheers,
    Bruce


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