FP2 vertical table and support tear-down and reassembly - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I'm voting for this to become a "sticky".

    Keep up the good work, Bruce.

    I'll have to thread down the same path later.

    Cheers
    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    Hi Ross,



    I'm confused -- what does it bear against? There is only empty air above that pin.
    Cheers,
    Bruce
    Should be a hard stop block at the top of the "T" slot above the upper feed trip stop.....In my parts book it is # 2001-602. If i am not mistaken it has a "T" bolt and nut along with a locating dowel.
    Cheers Ross

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    I don't know who invented them but both straight and tapered dowls with both internal and external threads are very common here in the US. Even my old south bend vertical mill uses them in several locations. The two local fastener retailer even have a limited supply to pick from.
    Andy

    Quote Originally Posted by traditional-tools View Post
    Leave it to the Germans...there are times you can't help but admire their tenacity in design...self removing taper pins that do not require a punch...I love it...

    OTOH, it must require some type of Fritz Tool or Fritz Thread in the nut...just seems to easy otherwise...

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    I went into the shop with good intentions this morning but got distracted.

    First step was cleaning out goo (mostly fossilized grease). I worked on this for a while, then as I poked around, realized that it was straightforward to remove the X/Z up/down/left/right shift lever. It's always bothered me that this lever, along with the other control levers, is covered with a rust. So I took it off, chucked it in the lathe, and cleaned it off with emery cloth and oil, followed by buffing. This went so well, that I decided to give the same treatment to the other control levers and locks.

    [The shift lever screws into a nut. To remove the lever, hold the nut fixed from inside the saddle with a wrench, and spin the shift lever to unscrew it. Between the lever and the hemispherical plastic dust cover is a spring (in my case, frozen with dirt and grease) that holds the plastic cover down. You can also remove the metal cover under the plastic dust cover; it can be pulled out after removing the retaining lock screw.]

    One pleasant surprise was the plastic knobs. They were rough, but it turned out not to be burrs or damage but just hardened glue, which I could scrape off. Some of the metal levers had some deep burrs from being mishandled with pliers in the past; I turned these down or filed them in the lathe to mostly clean these up.

    Here is the shift lever after clean-up:
    img_2096.jpg

    The rapid lever after clean-up:
    img_2093.jpg

    Z-axis lock after clean-up:
    (By the way, should this lever be bent, or is this from being mis-handled by a PO?)

    img_2095.jpg

    Y-feed lever after clean-up:

    img_2094.jpg

    I also spent some time looking carefully at the vertical box slides, hunting for clues about why the Z-axis is tight for the bottom few cm. The only signs I have seen so far are at bottom front operator-side face. On the inside there is a region that looks as if it has been rubbing: it shows a different wear pattern than the other parts of the vertical slide.

    img_2092.jpg

    I'll continue tomorrow, probably with removal of the Z-axis screw and slotted drive shaft. Then more parts cleaning.

    The 5mm 1:50 taper reamer arrived today, so I can ream out and re-pin the loose connection between the Y lead-screw and flange. But the reamer has a MT1 end, so I'll first have to build a holder for it.

    Note to myself: I need to replace the gasket on the sheet-metal cover behind the saddle. This is a rectangular 0.5mm thick sheet. I'll need a similar piece of material for the small oval-shaped cover plate.
    Last edited by ballen; 12-31-2013 at 05:54 PM. Reason: fix picture order

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post
    I also spent some time looking carefully at the vertical box slides, hunting for clues about why the Z-axis is tight for the bottom few cm. The only signs I have seen so far are at bottom front operator-side face. On the inside there is a region that looks as if it has been rubbing: it shows a different wear pattern than the other parts of the vertical slide.

    Heavier contact showing at the inside face of the lower box way face could easily be the result of wear on that box...the table (X)slide "rock" is controlled totally by the operators side box way.
    With the vertical slide removed it would be a simple matter to carefully measure the width across the face of the box...(Inside face to outside face) of the operators side box.
    Wear of .0005"+ will show up as being tight if the machine was adjusted up at the spot of greatest wear ( you always see most wear at the top 1/3 of travel)
    Also be aware that because the tapered gib for controlling that way is set with the large end down.. any play in the adjustment screw of the gib will tend to wedge that gib tighter as the
    slide moves down.....(friction will tend to jam the gib up and make it tighter.....) couple this with any wear or rather lac of wear at the bottom and you will get much tighter fits as the slide moves down...easily giving
    signs of parts hard rubbing.....
    Also remember that the last operator ran grease....likely little to no real lube is getting down on that lower way surface of the mating gib face.

    Cheers Ross

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen View Post

    Note to myself: I need to replace the gasket on the sheet-metal cover behind the saddle. This is a rectangular 0.5mm thick sheet. I'll need a similar piece of material for the small oval-shaped cover plate.
    Auto parts store should have gasket paper in stock...
    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Auto parts store should have gasket paper in stock.
    In Germany this sort of stuff is easier to find on-line. I previously ordered some 1mm, which I used to make a gasket for the oil catcher that goes on the back of the mill under the Y screw. That was thicker than needed; this time I will use the correct thickness. By the way, on my machine the gasket was the same size as the entire cover plate. Do you remember if yours was similar, or only covered the outside cm or so of the boundary? I would think that the latter design would be better as it would concentrate the pressure and seal better. There are some internal holes and openings that are covered by a full-sheet gasket, but I can't imagine that this is important, as without pressure from nearby screws, those won't seal anyway.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

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    Bruce:
    Pretty sure mine was a full sized sheet,same as the cover plate...
    Cheers Ross

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    When I went into the workshop today to work on the support, I realized that there simply wasn't enough good workspace, and I need to do some clearing up. The fastest way to make space was to reassemble the vertical head and put it back on the mill.

    First step was (surprise, surprise) cleaning off grease:

    img_2098.jpg

    In the past, I had noticed that the "brake ring" didn't seem to work, so I adjusted it. First I screwed out the three screws (1mm per revolution) so that with the breaking ring depressed, each screw projected about 5mm above the baseplate. The part of the adjusting ring that bears on the screws is inset about 4.5 mm, so that allows one to fully engage the brake. I noticed however that the bronze "brake pad" was not retracting fully, so I replaced the three (short) return springs with slightly longer ones; the photo below shows both the old and new springs.

    img_2101.jpg

    img_2100.jpg

    To reassemble the head, I put 45mm M10 studs on each of the four captive nuts, put the head together, then carefully removed the studs (one at a time) without disturbing the captive nuts, and replaced them with the Allen-head bolts.

    Before reassembly, I noticed some rough areas in the T-slots where the captive nuts had been over-tightened and slightly chewed up the T-slot. I ground a small blade to fit into the T-slot and scraped this smooth by hand; after reassembly the head rotates smoothly and there is no perceptible sign of damage.

    Question for the group: what is the hole in the front of the vertical head, close to the center of the following photo?

    img_2108.jpg

    The head went back onto the ram

    img_2109.jpg

    and I figured I could get back to working on the X-Z support. But after reattaching the long head, it wouldn't slide back and forth!

    I had the same problem when I first took the machine apart -- I could not get the extended head to slide back and forth until all the clamps were removed (not simply loosened). I had assumed that this was because the ways were clogged with varnish (which they were) but it turned out that this wasn't the only problem (see next post) ...

  11. #30
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    The vertical head slid back and forth just fine, until I attached the two steel blocks which trap the gear carrier carriage, prevent the head from coming free either forwards or backwards. But with the blocks attached, the vertical head was locked and would not slide through the 300mm design range.

    The problem was the rear locking block:

    img_2111.jpg

    When fastened in place, this was pressing against the ram. Strange that it should be tight... perhaps in the past the PO had over-tightened the clamping screw at the split end, and deformed it. I have some shim stock (0.001", 0.003" and 0.005") so figured no problem, and made up a 0.003" shim, to space the lock block a bit farther from the ram. That was still snug, so then I made up a 0.005" shim. That worked perfectly, I was just doing the final torquing of the screws when the ram locked again !

    This time I looked more closely at the locking block. The problem was fundamental: the screws pass through two steel bushings, and on the screw-head side of the bushing, under the screw heads, the lock block is worn away. There is so little "meat" under the screw heads that the bushings are partly visible. So under stress, when the screws are torqued, the block is "free" to move up and down the bushings!

    img_2110.jpg

    So I never made it to the support (although the main workbench is clear again). Tomorrow I will punch out the bushings from the stop block and turn some new ones that have a wider "base" to prevent the stop block from moving too close to the ram. If there is too little meat under the screw heads I'll also have to make up bushings for the screw-head side of the stop block. Then I can (finally!) get back to the support!

    Has anyone seen this problem with the rear stop block for the extended vertical head? I wouldn't be surprised if this piece has been modified by the PO: I find it strange that the entire attachment force is carried by the two small insert bushings. "Deckel design" would call for an large surface to carry that force, plus a couple of tapered pins for alignment.

    In fact I am puzzled that this design works at all. The "split" side of the stop block which has a clamping screw is free to move in and out from the ram, and can apply and remove clamping force. But the other side of the stop block is fixed with respect to the ram and should not be able to apply/remove clamping force! How can this work?

    To be continued tomorrow, hopefully with work on the X-Z support again...

  12. #31
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    I just wanted to mention something about the longer springs, If the coils touch each other the spring will break! Could be an optical illusion but the coil diameter appears to be much smaller on the "new" springs as well.

    MM

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    Hi Mick,

    Thanks for the comment!

    Quote Originally Posted by MICK 1958 View Post
    I just wanted to mention something about the longer springs, If the coils touch each other the spring will break! Could be an optical illusion but the coil diameter appears to be much smaller on the "new" springs as well.
    The new springs are the same diameter as the old ones, and are a slip fit on the screws, so no problem in that respect. I think the wire they are made from may be slightly small diameter, but have not measured it. Certainly the springs provide a positive retraction of the brake, which the previous springs did not.

    Regarding the spring length: as the bronze "brake pad" wears, the adjusting screws need to be backed out to compensate. For example if the brake pad has worn by 3mm, then the adjusting screws needs to be backed out by 3mm to compensate. The optimal spring length then increases by the same amount. There has probably been a few mm of wear over the years, because there seems to be plenty of space to accommodate the longer springs; when the lock ring is engaged I feel the brake pad engaging, not the body of the spring jamming together.

    Any thoughts about how the end-stop/clamp bar is intended to work? Seems like a Mickey-Mouse design, which I don't expect on this machine.

    Cheers,
    Bruce

  14. #33
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    I've made some progress today.

    First order of business was fixing the rear stop of the extended head. After some thought I decided that a simple and reliable fix would be to make up a spacer that indexed the body of the stop from the bottom of the ram. The two bushings extended (respectively) 0.030" and 0.038" out of the stop. (The smaller of these is the problem, the bushing has slipped up into the body of the stop!) I found some 1mm (0.039") sheet and cut out a spacer:

    img_2113.jpg

    Since I have removed and replaced this stop a dozen time, I have found a way around the limited access: insert a short 6mm hex piece into the screw head and then turn it with a wrench:

    img_2114.jpg

    That spacer fixed the problem nicely: now the vertical head slides smoothly over the entire range of motion, and locks securely.

    Then I spent some time removing grease from oil passages in the gibs. My main tools are (1) compressed air (2) a syringe full of solvent (3) a small wooden stick (giant toothpick) and (4) a deluxe-sized can of WD40 with a red straw for blowing into passages. And lots and lots of paper towels!

    This first photo shows what happens with compressed air is blown into the lower hole: grease comes flying out of the large and small holes above it:

    img_2118.jpg

    Then I injected solvent (kerosene) with a syringe, and blew it out with compressed air again. Repeat until the paper towel comes clean, with all combinations of input and output directions

    img_2119.jpg

    I discovered that the sight glass on the operator side is not original: it appears to be a replacement that was epoxied into place.

    img_2120.jpg

    This is additional motivation to replace the sight glasses; the sight glass on the other side is so blackened from grease that I would really like to get it out of there.

    Continued in next post...
    Last edited by ballen; 01-03-2014 at 02:22 AM.

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    After cleaning out the oil passages in all the gibs and keeper plates, I turned my attention to the support itself. More solvent, more WD-40, more compressed air, and yet more paper towels. I am not yet sure that all of the passages are clear, but they are better than before, and I'll have another go at them tomorrow.

    Then I began to disassemble the drive mechanism, mostly to clean it and to clean the corresponding oil passages. I am thinking about asking around to see if I can find someone with an ultrasonic cleaner that is big enough to submerge the entire support, and dunking the entire structure!

    First step is to drive out the tapered pins from the top bevel gear and from the clutch below:

    img_2123.jpg

    img_2128.jpg

    Then I removed the drive shaft and gears. Here is the top end of the drive shaft with the clutches and gears in order:

    img_2138.jpg

    Note the spacer shims and hardened thrust washer. These bear against a bronze bushing which has two steel pins pointing in the axial direction, at two opposite points of the circumference. In the following photo one sees the two steel pins at the left-hand side of the opening.

    img_2136.jpg

    Here at the top of the support, near the top bevel gear, one can see that the two pins are missing (broken or ground off) from the other side of the bushing, and a "notch" has been cut radially into the bushing:

    img_2135.jpg

    So I'll probably be pulling out this bushing to re-insert the missing pins. From what I can see, the bushing is retained by two screws located along the axis; the screw holes are visible in the previous photo. Does anyone have any idea why the pins have been removed, and if the bushing can be pulled after removing the two retaining screws?

    Continued in next post...

  16. #35
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    Tomorrow I want to remove the lead screw, so that I can reach the pipe that brings lubrication oil to it, to blow it clear. At the top of the lead screw is a 6-sided nut, shown below.

    img_2133.jpg

    A keyed washer below has bendable tabs, used to prevent the nut from spinning. I'll need to bend down the tab, then the question is, do I need to remove the stuff on top, or is there a clever way to grab the nut so that the lead screw can be removed without taking off the shifter assembly above it?

    That was pretty much all for today. A minor question: I want a lever for the quill, and understand that Deckel normally did not provide one. A 14mm 12-point wrench is a good fit; I can cut off the other end and grind it round. Is there a simpler solution? I don't think I want a 3-spoke handle as in a drill press; an offset wrench like this should make an nice handle.

    img_2139.jpg

    More to follow in 24h...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballen;2194019orr
    A minor question: I want a lever for the quill, and understand that Deckel normally did not provide one. A 14mm 12-point wrench is a good fit; I can cut off the other end and grind it round. Is there a simpler solution? I don't think I want a 3-spoke handle as in a drill press; an offset wrench like this should make an nice handle.
    .
    Funny you should say this....never thought about it i guess but every early manual Deckel i have had came with what i just assumed was a factory tool that fit the draw bar and the vertical quill.....Handle is about 6.5" long and has
    a square opening (clearance for 12mm) for the shaft end....
    Square opening is easier on the shaft than socket.. Just thought the wrench/handle was standard kit with the machine as they all seem to be similar. Can provide a photo in a day or so....
    Cheers Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    Funny you should say this....never thought about it i guess but every early manual Deckel i have had came with what i just assumed was a factory tool that fit the draw bar and the vertical quill.....Handle is about 6.5" long and has
    a square opening (clearance for 12mm) for the shaft end....
    Square opening is easier on the shaft than socket.. Just thought the wrench/handle was standard kit with the machine as they all seem to be similar. Can provide a photo in a day or so....
    Cheers Ross
    I had thought my handle was fabricated from a tool handle also, but when I was over wrench's house to pick up my DVD I saw his FP2 had the same handle, but had rubber on it. Mine doesn't have rubber, not sure if the rubber was a part of it when new or not...

    I'm not sure why, but it just struck me odd that Deckel would use such a toolish looking handle, but that seems the case...

    Cheers,
    Alan

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    Well i think it is because in reality the tool was there to do the draw bars...and the use of it on the quill is a bonus.
    My personal belief is that the designers (Deckel) never intended the quill to be used like we use a Bridgeport quill. That head is for "milling", the quill is for positioning with some "occasional" drilling. So
    having a drill press style handle was not considered something that was needed.
    Witnessed by the fact that Deckel did not provide any lube provisions for the quill..where on the Precision boring head , which is designed for quill work, has lube provisions to the quill, along with a different
    handle setup.(being longer, more easily repositioned having its drive through a hex, and retained on the quill feed shaft via a detent spring and ball)

    Cheers Ross

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    Hi Ross,

    Quote Originally Posted by AlfaGTA View Post
    every early manual Deckel i have had came with what i just assumed was a factory tool that fit the draw bar and the vertical quill.
    Thanks, is it something like this?

    Cheer,
    Bruce

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    Sort of....handle of the ones i have are offset . Surface finish on the one i have is much nicer...no texture, pretty smooth like a good end or box wrench, that and the square end is lengthened to give the wrench
    even more effective offset and length of engagement...Better proportions as well...longer/thinner.
    One has been "tool Dipped" with plastic on the handle..other has none. Not sure is that was a factory deal. Coating is pretty thick and harder than most tool dipping i have seen.

    Cheers Ross


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